[Jess!]

No, I do not believe that grade horses should be bred.

[whiteraven]

To me that registration is a protection for a horse. Registration adds value that passes to the next owner. Without that extra value the horse is (IMHO) more likely to head to the auction...

[Buckshot]

I will answer this simply.... No, I do not believe breeding grade horses is appropiate, especially since slaughter is not happening in the US right now.

[lvmypnt]

Originally Posted by Lou3

since a grade horse is simply a horse that is not purebred

I did not know this. I thought a grade horse was a horse that was not or could not be registered?

[Lexy]

Originally Posted by breezebayou

I have been milling this topic over in my head, and really trying to understand how we as "man" humans can know whats right for animals. You speak of diseases that horses get, and all I can think is, these diseases became more prevelant, when man decided to pick and choose what and who to breed, breed for looks, "conformation" as you call it.. In the wild horses know instinctively to breed for the "fittest" not the one that is most like a breed standard.. a breed standard that was decided on by man.. Who does not have a very good reputation in the animal world for conserving nature.. Sad really, that we think we can play God with genetics, all for the sake of having a "pure" breed horse..

If we hadnt started to mess with nature, and breed for show, we probably wouldnt have had all the problems with all these genetic disorders.. As always this is JMHO..

Amen!

As much as I hate to agree that we, (humans), have totally scre*wed up things, it is so true.

For instance... (so picked on) Impressive. But the reason he is so picked on when it comes to these lines of thoughts is because of the multitude of genetic faults HE had that has been passed on and on and on and on.

Heck, just for a minute forget about HYPP. That is just the last in a line of problems the "Impressive bred" horses have to deal with.. (or their owners deal with).

It's no doubt that Impressive was a prolific sire. Numbers don't lie. He sired 2250 foals with tens of thousands descendants. (and those are just the ones that are recorded!)

But, let's face it, for all that he was, he would not have made it "in the wild". He would have been dead many years before he managed to bread even a small percentage of the mares he did.

He had pedal osteitis, which IMO has been passed on genetically. This alone would have limited his breeding prowess as a stallion as he would not have been able to compete with other stallions for breeding rights.

He had colic surgery (I think) 4 times. (trying to find where I read that). Of course, some of those problems may have been man-made feeding programs.

And of course the HYPP (which as I have read, he did suffer
moderate episodes of)

[Jenje!]

Originally Posted by breezebayou

Sad really, that we think we can play God with genetics, all for the sake of having a "pure" breed horse..

Selective breeding of livestock is not "playing god".

[imacowgirl2]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

I have no problems with someone breeding QUALITY grade horses that have a use. I perfer my registered QH's as we also like to do breed shows and build the reputation of our horses. But, I do know some excellent breeders who will breed a grade mare or two becasue of their excellent attitude and the way they throw good minded, working foals. I have yet to see one of these foals go to anything but a working home. That is responsible breeding, even if it is *gasp* grade horses. However, I do not agree that willy-nilly breeding anything out there that has overies or testicles is right.

Just like a poster before said, drafts are often bred grade to grade, because they are proven working horses and have a deffinate market. Same with a lot of rodeo horses. They may not be registered, but their ability to pass on their abilities and temperment makes them breeding worthy.

I think it's more on an individual, case by case basis to say it is or is not right. But I do think there are way more horses, both grade and registered, that are bred that should never be allowed to pass on their genes.

Ditto! Horses can't read papers...if they are bred for a job, be it cow horse, rodeo horse, calm trail horse, etc, I believe they can be bred, provided of course, they have the good confo/attitude to go along with it. Due to genetic diseases (ie. HYPP) I'd be a bit more careful breeding grade horses that are of those breeds known to have major genetic mutations like that...but if the horse is superior in all other aspects, I see no reason why it shouldn't be bred.

There are a lot of registered horses out there that I believe shouldnt ever be bred.

[Donella]

Sad really, that we think we can play God with genetics, all for the sake of having a "pure" breed horse..
Sad?? Well maybe if you own horses as pasture ornaments, but horses are bred to be, in general, good at the job they were intended to do. There is a reason mustangs arent the most successful distance horses, grand prix dressage mounts or why they have no cow sense. Not everyone that owns horses is content to just have them sit in the feild or dabble at your local show...nor is there anything sad about having higher aspirations and wanting a horse that can get the job done.

The problem with breeding grade horses is that there is a risk of throwbacks to whatever is in the mix. You add even higher risk to an already risky situation. If you want a dressage horse for example, and you chose a grade with suitable conformation..but her dad is built like an old style QH, and you get that throwback, you are in big trouble. There is a reason that the top registries that breed for these horses only use the occassional arab and tb as improvements..and nothing else. These two horses have been bred true for so many centuries that you pretty much know what you are adding to the mix, and it seems like they do a good job as improvement, but even then, its not like they are added all the time. There are VERY few tb mares that are approved for hanoverian breeding for example and they must score higher than a hanoverian mare to get into the main book.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

I have no problems with someone breeding QUALITY grade horses that have a use. I perfer my registered QH's as we also like to do breed shows and build the reputation of our horses. But, I do know some excellent breeders who will breed a grade mare or two becasue of their excellent attitude and the way they throw good minded, working foals. I have yet to see one of these foals go to anything but a working home. That is responsible breeding, even if it is *gasp* grade horses. However, I do not agree that willy-nilly breeding anything out there that has overies or testicles is right.

Just like a poster before said, drafts are often bred grade to grade, because they are proven working horses and have a deffinate market. Same with a lot of rodeo horses. They may not be registered, but their ability to pass on their abilities and temperment makes them breeding worthy.

I think it's more on an individual, case by case basis to say it is or is not right. But I do think there are way more horses, both grade and registered, that are bred that should never be allowed to pass on their genes.

Exactally. On our ranch, we bred mostly grade horses. We bred mares who had good conformation, and were proven workers, to stallions who had good conformation, and were also proven workers, and almost always ended up with good solid workers. We never showed, so papers were not a priority, to my Dad, they weren't worth the hassle, since we never showed. My uncle breeds mostly foundation quarter horses, like you, but sometimes if he has a really good grade mare he will breed her. I don't think it's fair to say "No, you can't breed that horse because he/she is not registered". You should breed for conformation, attitude, and aptitude. I would never breed a mare, who wasn't up to my standards, but that goes for registered and unregistered horses. As someone else said, I've seen plenty of registered horses who should never have been bred. Same goes for grade horses. However, I do not think that it's wrong to breed a great grade horse. Sometimes I think it turns out better when you have crossbreds.

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by lvmypnt

I did not know this. I thought a grade horse was a horse that was not or could not be registered?

it doesnt matter if it can registered or not.
The best performance horse I ever sat on was an unregistered mare. Two of her offspring are now advanced level event horses, one of them was 4th at Badminton one year (cant remember which year)
A horse doesnt need papers to be a good horse, showing people will probably disagree with me but IMO papers do not define whether a horse is or is not worth breeding from. Conformation and performance record decide that.