[PeggySue]

we are taking the horses over on Tues and gonna TRY to start "tracking" some cows BEFORE we try to do some Team sorting

where do we start? what should we do?? HELP I really am losing my marbles as I get older

[doublebarr]

Relax, stay light on guiding and remember to make it fun for the horse now, not work. Try and pick the slowest cattle to track first. I would really avoid ones needing a lope right now to stay with as you are trying to set the horses up to "find the sweet spot" for directing the cow. Do you understand the "flight zones" of cattle? This makes it MUCH easier to predict where you need the horse to be to set them up for success.

If the cow happens to get away from you, don't rush your horse to catch back up yet. Just ease back up to position and let the horse try to follow on their own for a bit, staying in the "drive" zone of the cow. Some cows, you can get touching distance from before getting into their pressure zone, others need half an arena. You are trying to teach the horse to "rate" to the cow, so if you push a pressure zone, then it's going to confuse the horse regardless of where that zone falls at.

Are you going to have some "cattle savy" folks there with you? That is a much better coach and even if they rib you a bit, laugh with them and be a good sport and they will be the best resource you have.

Have fun!

[PeggySue]

I am hoping the lady who owes the cattle will stay there with us for a bit....

FLight zones?? HELP me Cindy

Our plans for tues are to just figure out how to move them from point A to point B slowly ... hopefully I can get my trainer to stop by if we are there at a time when he can be there... but I dunno it will be up to the farm owner what time not me

From what I seen Fri the cattle are pretty quiet there were 2 of the 14 that seemed "fllighty" for lack of better term on my part...

we plan on doing this only for fun... who knows we may get hooked and want to do it more but for now it is something to do for fun only ...

I wish I had the time and money to come out there and ride with you...

[doublebarr]

LOL Peggy! Any time, just show up.

This might help some, but some you just get from time spent working with them and getting the feel:

How Cattle Perceive Their World

Cattle really see the world differently. A cow may see more than you see and is often distracted by motion off to the side. However, she doesn't see the world as clear and sharply focused as humans see it, and it takes her more time to process what she has seen. Cattle have panoramic vision in excess of 300 degrees and only have a blind spot directly in the back of their heads. Human vision, by comparison, is roughly 180 degrees, and we have a much larger blind spot.

Figure 1. Cattle can see 300 degrees around them, with a blind spot only directly in the back of their heads.

While their field of vision is practically unlimited, cattle have poor depth perception of nearby objects and have limited vertical vision. Cattle must lower their heads to focus on something on the ground because they only have about 60 degrees of vertical vision, compared to 140 degrees for humans. Due to their limitation in vertical vision and their lack of ability to focus quickly, a shadow on the ground appears to them to be a three-mile deep crevasse!
Handlers can help reduce distractions and shadowing by taking these limitations into consideration and using a solid-sided working alley. Also, uniformity in color of handling facilities will reduce balking. Curved, solidly enclosed, and well-lighted working facilities take advantage of these senses, along with the animal's strong desire to find an avenue of escape when confined.
Cattle also hear differently than humans. They can hear both lower volume and higher frequency sounds better than people. It may be the sound of your truck, with feed in it, more than the sight of the truck, that makes those cows "come a runnin'."
Cattle hear extremely well, but the trade-off is that they have less ability to locate the source of a sound. People can pinpoint where a sound came from within 5 degrees, whereas cattle can only isolate the source down to about 30 degrees.
Be mindful of cattle with severe sight problems, such as an advanced case of cancer eye, as they will rely to a greater extent on their sense of hearing. Thus, they may suddenly swing around to investigate a noise.
Comfort/Flight Zone Affects Reactions

People and cattle have a comfort/flight zone that affects how we react.
In many Western cultures, two feet is considered the comfort zone for conversing with another person. In some other Eastern regions of the world, six inches is considered normal. At parties, you might observe Western speakers backing up to seek their comfort zone and Eastern speakers following them to maintain their comfort zone. Also, consider that we typically turn and face someone who is talking to us.
Just as we have some predictable behaviors, so do cattle. Understanding this behavior can be very useful in designing cattle-handling facilities.
The flight zone (comfort zone) is the animal's personal space. The flight zone may be five to 25 feet for tame cattle or feedlot cattle and 300 feet for some wild cattle. The flight zone increases when the approach is from the head, and the flight zone also increases when cattle are excited. The flight zone decreases when animals are in a single file chute.
Cattle will normally move effectively if the handler works on the edge of the flight zone. Deep invasion of the flight zone can cause animals to panic. In Figure 1, Position A is the location outside of the flight zone where animals will stop moving forward, and Position B, inside the flight zone, will cause the animal to move away from the handler.

Figure 2. The handler can control the movement of cattle by taking a position in relation to the animal's flight zone. If the handler takes up a position at Point A, which is outside the flight zone, the cattle will stop moving forward. If the handler moves to Point B, which is inside the animal's flight zone, the animal will move away from the handler.

Entering the Flight Zone

Livestock handlers need to understand the flight zone and the point of balance. The point of balance for cattle is typically at the shoulder. To make an animal move forward, the handler should stand behind the point of balance. To move the animal backward, the handler stands in front of the point of balance. The animal may try to turn if the handler enters the animal's blind spot. Therefore, don't walk directly behind an animal, but off to the side so you can be seen.
Careful, quiet handling of cattle will help improve productivity. Stress imposed by handling and transport can have detrimental effects on weight gain, rumen function, reproductive function, and the immune system. Quiet handling reduces stress-related meat-quality problems such as dark cutters. The amount of stress imposed on an animal is an interaction involving previous experience and genetics.
How quiet your cattle are is at least partially a function of how they are worked. Cattle can remember rough handling. While most cattle will calm down when they are handled quietly, a small percentage of them may remain excited. Highly excitable cattle should be culled. To accurately cull for temperament, there should be a minimum of two observations. More than one evaluation is required to avoid culling a good animal that became excited because an animal next to it became agitated. A behavior classification table helps in assessing which animals should be culled.
1 = DocileGentle; handles quietly; slightly elevated respiration.2 = RestlessMore active; elevated respirations but settles down after joining the group once again.3 = NervousConstant movement; occasionally bumps fences and gates; settles down only after several minutes after returning to the group.4 = FlightyAgitated by handling and avoids handlers; bumps into gates and fences; always seems to watch handlers when approaching the group.5 = AggressiveBumps gates and fences and might be willing to challenge handlers; attempts to jump fences and gates.6 = Very AggressiveVery aggressive toward handlers; jumps and bellows while in the chute. Exits chute frantically and may still exhibit aggressive behavior.
If an animal becomes very excited, 20 to 30 minutes are required for its heart rate to return to normal. For this reason, many packers have "standing" pens to allow cattle to calm down prior to harvest. Many practictioners of artificial insemination also try to sort cattle and let them relax prior to breeding.
Steps such as reducing yelling and minimizing electric prod usage should be considered. If a tool is needed, a stick with a plastic bag on the end or wands that rattle may be useful. Solid sides on chutes and crowd pens help keep animals calmer. Solid sides provide the most advantage when wild cattle are worked and have less effect on tame animals.
Defensive Animals

Horses usually kick directly toward the rear. Cattle are "round-house" punchers. Cows kick forward and out to the side. Cows also have a tendency to kick toward a side with pain. So, if a cow is suffering from mastitis in one quarter, consider approaching her from the opposite side of the affliction. Calves can kick directly backwards and can have a quick "round-house" punch.

Figure 3. Cattle exhibit a "round-house" punch and kick forward and out to the side.

Cattle exhibiting maternal instincts are usually more defensive and difficult to handle. Removal from a familiar pasture or pen can cause animals to react unexpectedly. Shadows, yelling, and contrasts in lighting can further excite animals and make their behavior unpredictable. Similar problems occur when animals are moved away from feed, separated from the herd, or approached by an unfamiliar person. It is usually easier to take two or three additional animals when you want to work only one of them.
Never prod an animal when it has no place to go. Cattle that become upset during handling and/or that have a bad disposition may adopt a "fight" rather than "flight" behavior. When entering an enclosed area with cattle, you should consider your escape routes — a fence, a tree, or a post.

[doublebarr]

This is also an excellent article where it links the horse/cow equation:

http://westernhorseman.com/index.php...=546&Itemid=77

[PeggySue]

Cindy have I told you lately I LOVE you LOL

I have to be crazy, we have been talking about doing this for a LONG time well we are BOTH now ready ... neither horse is scared of cattle but I dunno IF I am LOL I am fine OUTSIDE the fence from them but that is different then INSIDE the pen with them...

Tues we are gonna have a 80X120 indoor to work in too ourselves with the owner HOPEFULLY gonna be there to help... I know she will be for the first bit anyway... I am excited scared and all kinds of stuff rolled into one...

[doublebarr]

LOL, easy girl!

Don't worry so much. It's as much about fun when you do the practices as it is about learning. So just go with an open mind and have fun!

[PeggySue]

I am just hoping to stay IN THE SADDLE these first few times and get the crazy things to move!!!!

[endurgirl]

Just got here, LOL, and came straight to ya!! Haven't had time to read what the all-knowing Cindy has said. She does know her cows, and loads of bulls**t too

For us, when we are driving cows to be worked and we want to use the horse to stop them, we go to the head or "get into the eye" of the cow. Also "push on it's ear". And by George, when you visualize literally pushing on the cow's ear, it moves where you want it to.

[endurgirl]

Oh, yeah, forgot this part *smacks forehead*

You'll learn to read the cattle and who needs more pressure to move. I have only 2 little calves (compared to Cindy's 42 million cows ) and one requires lots of pressure and the other will take off at a "boo" or a slap on the thigh, not much pressure for her.

Are you learning to track the cows as well as the horses learning? If so, get out there, and just do it, LOL! You'll soon learn the cows body language, and learn to watch for the cows shoulders and front end to dip and hold on, 'cause it's changing directions!!