[DailyNhtly]

I have an interesting situation that I would love to run by you guys...

Think of it as a role playing game. I'm going to set up a scenario for you (I'll apologize for the length in advance) and see what you would do if you had complete controll of the situation. (And further apologies if you frequent other horse boards, because I will probably cross-post this).

You are contracted to come into a riding facility as their consultant, the resident equine nutritional expert (congrats!). You are presented with a herd of average horses (varying breeds, ages, experiences, degrees of fitness) that are worked on a regular basis (4-5 times a week) for a good days work. The conditions are hot and humid.

You notice that some of these horses seem to be a bit underweight, while others look a bit plump for your liking. Visiting the local feed store, you find that have the following at your access in terms of feed and supplements:
10%, 12% and 14% mixed pellet feed
Shredded and pelleted beet pulp (with or without molasses)
Various kinds of corn feed
Various kinds of oat feed
Sweet feed/pelleted mix
Corn oil
Rice bran

Minimal grass is available but you have access to a large supply of round bales (timothy mix) of average quality.

Your goal is to get these horses into condition, and keep them that way while they are working at your facility. You are given four horses to begin with:

Horse A - 17 year old mixed breed, very energetic but underweight. Always seems to be 'hot' and you're told he's a 'hard keeper'. He is currently being fed 5lbs of 14% a day with access to hay.

Horse B - 4 year old mixed breed, slightly underweight. Green and has a tendancy to 'explode'. Food aggressive. You are told she will put weight on easily. Currently being fed 3lbs of 14% a day with access to hay.

Horse C - 9 year old mixed breed pony, slightly overweight. You are told that she gains weight simply by looking at food.
Currently being fed a handful of 14% a day with access to hay.

Horse D - 12 year old TWH gelding, lanky but a good weight. You have been told that he constantly goes lame and will work 5 days a week the first month, and then 1 day a week the next month, depending upon his health. Currently being fed 2lbs of 14% a day with access to hay.

Your concerns are as follows:
Your horses (with the exception of horse D) are constantly worked and need their energy to perform, however, you don't want anyone coming up hot, but you certainly don't want to end up with underweight horses. Horse D presents a problem because you never know how much energy he will need in a given week, but wanting to change his feed gradually, presents a problem as his needs change from day to day. You are able to mix various feeds and supplements for your horses, but your budget and physical space allotted for feeding restricts you to choose only 2 or 3 different feed choices.

What do you do to keep everyone healthy, full of energy, a good weight and managable under saddle?

Feel free to pick away or ask any questions and thanks in advance for your time. It's appreciated

[Sue B]

You did not mention the most important item...a quality vit/min mix or a ration balancer...either or is good. Ration balaners are better as they provide a little "food" with the vit/min making easy keepers think they are getting something along with the other horses.

But, given your list...I would select beet pulp shreds with molasses (provided it is a typical mix of 5% molasses), 12% pellet and rice bran.

Reasons:
You can increase or decrease the amount of beet pulp as needed to accomodate the easy/hard keepers. Beet pulp makes a good deal of volume so that a very little amount seems like a lot to the horse. It is a good source of energy/calories for working horses. Since it is digested like forage...you can increase/decrease it easily for a horse with a varying workolad....horse does not have to "adjust" to it gradually...although I would recommend gradual introduction in the beginning as some horse do not take to it readily....and on some rare occassions, there are negative reactions to it. I would recommend soaking to produce volume and accomodate any horse that might be prone to choke. With shreds, you can set up 10 mins before feeding...with pellets, it takes several hourse to soak.

12% pellet - I would give this as a "standard" to all normal/hard keepers. Amount would of course vary as per needs of horse. This would be your "base" feed as it contains the nutrient package. Beet pulp and rice bran would be added as needed.

Rice bran - excellent source of added calories for work. All working horses and hard keepers should get this in varying amounts. Gamma oryzenol in it helps with muscle and has been found in humans to prevent or aid in healing ulcers...so good for the tummy. It is generally recommended that a max of 2 lbs/day be fed....so very little would be needed for easy keepers and normal horses.

I tried to devise feeding plans for your 4 examples based on the products that you listed...but could not in all fairness to the horses do so. I simply could not limit nutrition in the way that it would have to be done to accommodate these 4 "out of the norm" cases. Since it appears that all of them may have intolerance to grain based carbohydrates....yet some need more calories than they are currently getting....I felt that without access to a vit/min mix or ration balancer, I was up against a never ending battle to control weight and provide energy.

As DM, you may remove me from the game....but you can't have my magic scrolls!

[DailyNhtly]

Thanks for the response (and the laugh) Sue... I'll come back in a couple here when there are more replies (hopefully) and I'll give some elaborated responses. Don't want to bias any future posters

[griffin]

Sue B - where did you learn all this stuff im impressed.

[DailyNhtly]

Alright, so I had a thought and figured I would add some more details as well...

One of my main concerns with our virtual horses is that the hay they will be consuming is not the best in the world. With no nutritional analysis available, I can't give you any ratios, but let's assume it's not so great.

The other concern is the total amount of feed presented to our horses, as they will only be fed twice a day.

Of course, we are trying to balance our slow-releasing energy with the more sugary 'hot' calories, so what do we think of (...as Sue suggested) to attempt to mix together a pelleted feed (as a base), with beet pulp (for added calories and calcium and as a way to supplement the forage part of their diet without going heavy on concentrates), and rice bran (for additional calories and fat)?

In using these three ingredients, can anyone come up with an acceptable diet for our four horses?

And just on the off chance, anyone familar with issues or concerns brought up by a lack of phospurous in the diet? I would be apprehensive to supplement on this end since there is no way to analyze what the horses are already consuming, but would the addition of calcium from the beet pulp add to a possible dangerous imbalance of a calcium/phosporous ratio?

[Sue B]

No, no and no....

Hay quality matters not...provided you are supplementing either enough nutrient dense feed or a vit/min supplement/ration balancer to provide good nutrition.

You can't provide good nutrition when you have to feed limited amounts of commercial feeds...you have to feed the "recommended" amount in order to attain the levels guaranteed on the bag....and even at that...you are probalby still missing something. In most cases, you would need to feed approx. 6 lbs (maybe more for a working horse) to be in the recommended levels. Hardly economical and hardly beneficial for the horse being fed 2x/day.

In general, you would not be feeding enough beet pulp to create an imbalance. Excess calcium can be handled by adult horses....working horses need more minerals than non/light working horses. In most cases, concern for Ca : P is implicated in growing horses. Unless you were feeding an abnormal amount of beet pulp for a special case horse...even a couple of pounds will not make that much difference. in overall dietary intake.

[Sue B]

Originally Posted by griffin

Sue B - where did you learn all this stuff im impressed.

Don't be....I purchased all my magical scrolls from an Elven thief named Gray Mouser....any worthwhile nutrition magician would have apprenticed and developed their own scrolls over time!

[DailyNhtly]

::fails test::

Well, my point was that the hay quality is unavoidable and since I would be starting with the commercial pellets as the base, I hoped to keep total feed amounts within a safe range with the addition of mostly beet pulp (as well as a touch of rice bran). The assumption was for our harder to keep equines, the rice bran could be added at an equal or greater amount (or even totally substituted) for the beet pulp to up the calories *and* fat.

Wrong again?

Where I can I sign up for these Elven classes?

[Sue B]

Beet pulp is of about a medium quality when it comes to feedstuff...in other words...it provides about the same nutrition that mid-quality hay does....it is not nutrient dense...therefore, while a good addition to a feeidng program, it is not good enough to stand as "added nutrition". Does that makes sense?

There are approx. 1700 cals/lb from rice bran and approx. 1200 from beet pulp...you could not sfafely substitue rice bran for beet pulp...at least not in any large amounts....you can't safely feed just any amount of rice bran...there are limitations to its benefical feeding rate. Most manufacturers recommend no more than 2 lbs/day. On the other hand beet pulp can be fed at amounts up to 50% of total daily intake of food.

OK....since you are the DM and I would want to appease you....how about this:

Barring any thoughts on what one might consider "quality" nutrition.....
Use the pellets as a base at an average rate of 2 lbs/day for normal horses...vary from there as needed for easy/hard keepers.

Feed beet pulp at a rate of approx. 1 lb/day to normal horses...vary up or down for hard/easy keepers. Also feed the beet pulp with consideration for work.

Feed rice bran at a rate of 1/2 lb/day to normal horses...up or down from there for easy/hard keepers. As little as 1/2 cup/day can be very benefical.

This feeding program coupled with at least 15 lbs/hay/day will provide an average horse with approx. 20,000 cals/day. The average light working horse needs 16,000 cals/day. The extra should keep working horses in good weigth and energy. All you have to remember is that with this program, nutrition will most likely suffer.....but with the rice bran...they'll look in good condition and healthy.

[DailyNhtly]

Yes, it makes total sense. I was not under the impression that I could 'nutritionally' substitute the beet pulp for the hay, but under the conditions (of poor hay quality), I was hoping to simply add it (not substitute) to up the forage ratio as well as those added calories. Thanks for the info.

And yes, I was aware of the restrictions on the rice bran. In the past, your base rates were fairly accurate on what I did. The pellets and the beet pulp. I had some problems with maybe two or three 'hard keepers' so I was looking for an additional boost for the weight mainly --hence the rice bran. Also had a few that detested the beet pulp, so perhaps rice bran could be used (in limited amounts) as a complete substitue. If weight were an issue with these horses, then the pellets would have to be increased.

p.s. Do you take American dollars for scroll purchases?