[Madick]

Originally Posted by shaiarabs

be aware that you cannot use moxidectin products with a good safety result if they have NO muscle structure, if they have no muscles the product is then stored in the organs and can damage internal organs they must have muscles to store this product and it should be given as close to correct weight as possible

That's interesting! I did not know that. Do you have a source where I can read more?

I've looked up the info I have on moxidectin where it says it has lipofile properties and concentrates mainly in fat tissue.

[Madick]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Power Pack or Quest - it's up to the owner to decide which. The more of a parasite load the horse has, the more potential a 5 day double dose of fenbendazole has to cause problems, and that is why I said to consider it ONLY when the horse is past that stage.

But WHY use PP when Quest does the exact same thing without the harm to the guts? You can't just say "it's up to the owner" when you can't say why or why not.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Madick

But WHY use PP when Quest does the exact same thing without the harm to the guts? You can't just say "it's up to the owner" when you can't say why or why not.

Some people, myself included, won't use moxidectin because of the lower safety margin. That's why. So yes, it IS up to the owner to choose.

I DO know that thousands of horses have consumed moxidectin without any trouble whatsoever. I also know that several previously healthy horses who had been on a regular, liberal deworming program, died following the use of moxidectin. Maybe coincidence, maybe not. *I* won't take that chance.

[Madick]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Some people, myself included, won't use moxidectin because of the lower safety margin. That's why. So yes, it IS up to the owner to choose.

I DO know that thousands of horses have consumed moxidectin without any trouble whatsoever. I also know that several previously healthy horses who had been on a regular, liberal deworming program, died following the use of moxidectin. Maybe coincidence, maybe not. *I* won't take that chance.

NOW you got me. You made an argument for why. That makes the "owner" (or chooser) to make a better call for what to use and why. They can put lower safetymargin against more harm to the gut and choose. That makes all the difference in the world, do you see what I mean?

[shaiarabs]

sorry it took me a bit to get back to you with it as I have just spent 24 hrs with a gas colic...

as jb says it has a minimal saftey rate of just 5x where as the ivermectins are 100x.

I would never give moxidectin based to this horse until he is in full condition and even then get the horse weighed first as I have seen a full grown and in work stallion drop dead from being wormed with that ingredient he was overdosed for his weight

I have also heard from overseas people who have used this product that have ended with horses with neurological disorders

im not saying dont use it but if you do please use it to the letter and never on old horses with organ issues, babies or bone skinny rescues


moxidectin study paper - http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecf...no/v36je03.htm

moxidectin death site - http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/...ectinpage.html

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00274.htm

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=mo...l&start=0&sa=N

sorry to hijack a bit OP but its valuable info for you and any others in your position best of luck with your horse

[SunRock Sage]

Shaiarabs, no problem on the hijack, pry won't hear that too often . You are totally right this is valuable information, I said before that I want to make as many decisions as I can from an informed stand. There are so many things that you have to learn through trial and error that it is nice to be able to utilize others knowledge. Thanks to everyone.

I will update a bit on Jordan's injury in the other thread.

[Madick]

I don't get why you post a lot of links regarding DOGS?! It's like saying you shouldn't use ivermektin since some dogs die from it.

Also, where is the proof the stallion died from the moxidectin? Did he recieve more than 5 tubes or did he just weigh 200 pounds? The negative reactions to moxidectin on larger animals have not been "sudden death". It must have been something else that caused that horse to die.

I can't believe you rather give PP that in ALL cases hurts the guts than give moxidectin that you can overdose 5 times (that is 5 tubes to a 16-17hh normal size horse.). I just don't get it.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Madick

I can't believe you rather give PP that in ALL cases hurts the guts

Do you have any research that says 100% of the time it causes irritation? All that I have seen is that it *can*, especially if there is a large parasite load.

[Madick]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Do you have any research that says 100% of the time it causes irritation? All that I have seen is that it *can*, especially if there is a large parasite load.

I need to look for a bit. Although it's the way the substance works that differs.

Found it easily:

Consequences of larvicidal treatment of horses with fenbendazole and moxidectin
STEINBACH Tanja ; BAUER Christian ; SASSE Hermann ; BAUMGÄRTNER Wolfgang ; REY-MORENO Cecilia ; HERMOSILLA Carlos ; DAMRIYASA Made ; ZAHNER Horst ;
2006, vol. 139, no1-3, pp. 115-131 [17 page(s) (article)]
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17826695

[JBandRio]

Thanks Madick, I hadn't seen that one before. It reports the same thing I have seen, but given that only 8 horses were given the fbz, it doesn't seem to emphatically prove that all horses would be affected the same way. They said the horses were naturally infected with cyathostomins (which I think are small strongyles, but is that the encysted stage?), but what was the load like? If a load is high, is the inflammation caused by the fbz what ends up causing a problem, because of the higher number of parasites, and if there were fewer parasites, would the inflammation be negligible?

Another study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186406 discussed the resistance, or not, of the cyathostomins to ivermectin, pyrantel pamoate, and fenbendazole in single doses, which is why I suspect these are not the encysted stage. I can't find anything (yet) that clearly spells it out one way or the other.

That article (right above) was back in '05, and shows then the resistance of stronglyes to both pyrantel and to fenbendazole. Granted, the study was in Sweden, but this does not bode well for the use of daily dewormers (a class of pyrantel), nor for the "regular" use of pyrantel pamoate nor fenbendazole. That has been mentioned in several deworming threads here, by Ryle in particular, and is worth people really taking notice of.

Deworming is NOT just about grabbing a tube and giving every 2 months

It's been an interesting bit of searching, I appreciate the challenge