[kyryah]

Originally Posted by SunRock Sage

Something I forgot.... It seems that it is a given that he is wormy. I know that if she wasn't feeding him well that there were other areas of neglect but thin doesn't always = wormy, does it?

According to the girl that I bought him from the vet was out to check teeth and all that. Apparently they were fine and she claims that he was on a worming schedule with her other horses, which were all fat and happy. My guess is that they, the other 2 horses, were helping themselves to ALL the food. Funny that this wasn't noticed though. Anyway... don't really want to go there. I like the girl, just don't like how she was taking care of this horse.

Thin itself does not always equal wormy. However....

If this horse was at all neglected, you can almost guaruntee that there is a worm problem.

All horses have the potential to have worms. The eggs and cysts stay in the ground for YEARS. That is why even well cared for horses need to be wormed regularly... There is ALWAYS reinfection.

I have rehabbed several thin horses, and beet pulp has done WONDERS for me.

This is Tina. As you can see she was severly underwieght. The second pic was taken just 23 days later. This was with a half a bale of grass hay a day, free choice minerals, about 12 pounds of beet pulp and 1 1/2 acres of grass pasture. Amazing what FOOD can do for a horse, huh? She was 21 years old.



Kristina

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by SunRock Sage

Something I forgot.... It seems that it is a given that he is wormy. I know that if she wasn't feeding him well that there were other areas of neglect but thin doesn't always = wormy, does it?

No, thin doesn't always equate to wormy, but a hair coat like you describe can (again, doesn't always ). Since you have suspicions about his deworming, it's pretty safe to assume he's carrying a higher than desirable load. That is just part of dealing with a "rescue" horse, and it's often pretty easily dealt with.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by SunRock Sage

I hear what you are saying about the high protein. I am NOT totally sure what the benefit would be to feeding him something different, that's costs more, when I could possibly feed him less of this. The question in my mind still is what does beetpulp or alfalfa offer that he isn't getting with the distillers. Again, not arguing just want to learn.

In this case, it's not so much what the bp and a are providing that the distillers aren't, it's how much protein you are feeding with the distillers. No, extra protein doesn't hurt a healthy horse (contrary to popular belief), but it requires an awful lot of water to process which just makes them pee that much more. DGs are not balanced feedstuffs either (not that bp or ap are), and the diet you're currently feeding is not nutritionally where it needs to be. It wouldn't be with the bp or ap either, if you just replaced 1 for 1. You're obviously dealing with a nutritionally deficient horse (for who knows how long) and he needs that now. You could likely feed quite a bit less of the hard feed (whether that is dg or bp or ap) if you significantly increased his nutrition, and any time you do that, you are doing a big service to the horse. I realize the dg is free for you, but more of something free is not necessarily better, and 14lb of a 25-30% feedstuff is TOO much. A few pounds of that is all I would feed. You would not be feeding more of bp or ap, I pretty much guarantee it, if you increase the nutritional value of his diet. Find a good ration balancer for alfalfa hay and cut the dg in half, at least - that would be *my* recommendation at this point.

ETA: I forgot to let ya know what I wormed him with. It was some Ivermectin that I had here. I waited almost a week before I gave it to him and I brought him home on... March 30 so it was around the 6th the he got wormed. Any more specific insrtuctions on where to go from here with worming. Brand names and or what typ of worms to kill would really be helpful. Something really clear and concise. Or... I will try to read this tomorrow when I have gotten some sleep.

Ivermectin wouldn't have been my first choice for a horse with an unknown parasite load, fyi It could have easily caused a large enough die off to cause issues. If I were in your shoes, *I* would now do an Equimax (ivermectin + praziquantel) now, to deal with anything the first ivermectin misses, plus deal with tapeworms. If you have an issue with doing ivermectin again, then do a double dose of Strongid Paste for the tapes, or a single dose of Tapecare Plus (which is a doubled pyrantel pamoate, which is Strongid). Then in another month *I* would do either a Panacur Powerpac, or Quest - your choice.

Originally Posted by Madick

I would never use PowerPac on a horse now that moxidectin is avaliable. PP hurts the guts in the way that we do the deworming to prevent... Moxidectin is much easier on the horses guts.

As I said the first time - the OP's choice. I and thousands of others have used PPs with no ill-effects. There are horses who react adversely to the PP for the reasons you stated. That does not mean a PP is inherently bad.

I would especially not use a PP on a horse in bad shape.

I also never said to immediately use a PP - I said as long as he's past the "let's deworm him but not kill him" stage, it is fine and often necessary (a heavy hitter, whether it's PP or Quest) to get the horse to where he can actually do something with the feed he's getting.

[Madick]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

As I said the first time - the OP's choice. I and thousands of others have used PPs with no ill-effects. There are horses who react adversely to the PP for the reasons you stated. That does not mean a PP is inherently bad.

But how can you know it's no ill-effects? The hurt is inside and the damage can cause very subtle symptoms you don't react over.

It IS proven that PP makes the guts react the same way as if the encysted larvae mass-emigrate and THAT is exactly what we try to prevent with that deworming.

[Madick]

Originally Posted by kyryah

All horses have the potential to have worms. The eggs and cysts stay in the ground for YEARS. That is why even well cared for horses need to be wormed regularly... There is ALWAYS reinfection.

No it's not. And also remember, there are different kind of worms to deal with, you can't say that is true for all worms.

I'm doing 200+ FECs every year by myself and are referring lots of others as I work with parasitecontrol in both small and large stables.

ALL the stalls I've worked with only have to deworm 10% of their horses after doing FEC and deworming accordingly. The only exception is those who have botflyeggs and don't scrape them off every day, and those who gets problem with tapes, those are quite few though. How much tapeworms depends on the area you live in.

The absolutely easiest way of getting lower parasitepreassure in your pastures is cleaning them out...

I recently found an article showing ivermectin now has only half the ERP-time in parts of the States = resistance because of overuse/wrongly used. In Sweden the ERP is 56 days (8 weeks) still. No resistance showing at all. And this with more awareness and less deworming but healthy horses.

PREVENT instead of cure.

[ejforrest]

Horses that are severely starved can have internal damage. Putting that much weight on in such a short time, you are lucky he hasent colicked, foundered or reputred the stomach with that much food. You need to slow down and you need to get rid of the grains.
He has a good chance of colicking now and with the grains an even bigger one. Research shows grains to cause all sorts of health problems(colic, ulcers, founder, cribbing, insulin/glucose spikes, diarrhea, ect..) and you dont need any right now. Slow and easy is the way to go with neglected/starved horses.

What works for me when I take in starved horses:
Beet pulp: Slowly introduced and worked up to a gallon twice a day over a three week period. It takes that long for the horses good gut flora to adapt to feed changes. Sudden changes cause colic and founder.
Fat: Work up to a cup twice a day with the beet pulp. Start at 1/4 cup and work up to the cup twice a day. Fat is great for putting on weight and for giving a little more energy.
Alfalfa pellets or grass pellets: I give a gallon once a day along with the beet pulp and fat. Work up to that amount.
Complete vitamin/mineral supplement. Give as directed. I use Sho-Glo. It is available in a 28 pound bag.
I havent had a horse colic on this diet and I have put on 100 pounds on 2 so far. They need another 50/100. Slow and easy.

Have his teeth checked
Do a FEC and deworm with a dewormer that controls tapeworms such as ivermectin gold, quest plus, or equimax. FEC's wont show tapeworms.
Have a vet do a health check. The horse could have Cushings. My horse showed signs at the age of 7. No shedding, excessive thurst, excessive urination, excessive hunger, sway backed or pot bellied appearance(mine has a sway back) loss of muscle over the top line, and compromised immune system. Insulin resistance can be part of Cushings too. He is 28 this year and has been very active.
Taking on a starved horse is a big responsibility and the vet should be involved in his care. Good luck.

[SunRock Sage]

Thank you all yet again for all the well though out information I am constantly amazed by the knowledge and willingness to share it.

Here is what my Grandpa said in response to me asking about it. He said that the WET distillers that I am feeding is....

"35% dry matter and so he is actually only getting 4.5lbs of air dry feed. Assuming that he is eating 20lbs of hay a day, that is less than 20% of his diet."

Again I will say that we ARE balancing his diet with mineral and salt and clacium to balance the calcium/phosprhous ratio. We feed about 3 ozs of calcium to balance plus he gets a little alflafa every day.

I will look at the different wormers recommended. Good to know all the facts and decided from an educated, or at least informed postition. Thanks again.

[cassandra01000]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

At his age, Cushing's is unlikely.

not necessarily, i know of a 10yr old pony who has it now, that has had it for almost 2 years. and i know of another pony that got it and i believe she was in her mid-teens.

[2manypetz]

Maybe have a vet do a blood work up. We found our horse was getting thin and not having a good hair coat because of tapes. All our other horses were fat, but he had been at another farm, they had their healthy horse coilc and die, because of a tape overload. So ours must have picked them up there. The vet tested his blood and found he was anemic, and low in magniseum. We treated all our horses for tapes and moved them to a new pasture and cleaned the lot. What our vet had us do was give liguid panacur, NOT the one in the tube. I would talk to your vet , this stuff is what they give to cows, and you sould only give it under a vet recommendation, he will tell you what you need for your horses size and health. We supplement him with the beat pulp, bean meal, flax, senior feed, mineral salt, we always have a round bale out and a mineral lick, and put out flakes or good square bale hay. He is beautuful now, a shinny copper penny with a great hair coat, I wish I would have taken pictures, he lost probably 200 pounds in a matter of a month, and it took all summer to put it back on, because we gave the supplements in small mounts and built them up so as to not upset his tape worm comprimized system. Have his teeth power floated, to make sure it is done right, that makes a big difference. You can see our horse if you click on the picasawab link, it is red the twh. You can see in some where he does not look as good as in others, that is when he was recovering. I do not knwo all the names for the wormers, I just check and make sure every other time that all get one with tape in it, they run more expensive, but better than sick horses or vet bills. We worm every other month. Some peole do it every month, so every 3, some have daily wormers, They say that as soon as they are wormed, they get them again. I agree with the lady that said hose him down. Ours like a bath and it does seem like the hair comes out. I am all big on BOSS, flax, bean meal and beet pulp. We took our horse to the iowa horse fair, our our out all the time, never blanketed, except with mud, and they had fantastic coats, compared with some, they looked as good as the stabled blanketed horses. They were shiny and shedded out. What we are doing is working for us. I knwo you will find what works for you. Work with your vet, especially if you can find a "horse vet" Good luck!

[shaiarabs]

Originally Posted by Madick

I would never use PowerPac on a horse now that moxidectin is avaliable. PP hurts the guts in the way that we do the deworming to prevent... Moxidectin is much easier on the horses guts.

I would especially not use a PP on a horse in bad shape.

be aware that you cannot use moxidectin products with a good safety result if they have NO muscle structure, if they have no muscles the product is then stored in the organs and can damage internal organs they must have muscles to store this product and it should be given as close to correct weight as possible

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by cassandra01000

not necessarily, i know of a 10yr old pony who has it now, that has had it for almost 2 years. and i know of another pony that got it and i believe she was in her mid-teens.

I didn't say it wasn't possible, just unlikely. Yes, young horses get it, but it's not very common at all.

Power Pack or Quest - it's up to the owner to decide which. The more of a parasite load the horse has, the more potential a 5 day double dose of fenbendazole has to cause problems, and that is why I said to consider it ONLY when the horse is past that stage.

As for the amount of weight the horse has gained - I have seen that most often weight gain or loss is very over-estimated