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Discuss Non Fading Black Genetics at the Horse Breeding forum - Horse Breeding Forums.

Is someone says they have a "True Non-Fading Black", there is no genetic test for ...
  1. #21
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    The only way to know is through observation

    Is someone says they have a "True Non-Fading Black", there is no genetic test for it.

    They just must know that their black horse NEVER BLEACHES OR FADES That's all.

    Some blacks fade/bleach terribly. And the RARE ONES simply don't.

    It happens with other colors, too. I have a liver chestnut that fades/bleaches terribly. She is black chestnut with a "fresh/new coat"..but then bleaches out to a terrible reddish-tan color.
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    Faithfully, horses don't fad uniformly when they fade.The sooty gene on a black coat isn't visual.

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    Just because it's not a new theory doesn't mean it's a correct one.
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    My horse fades most on the saddle area - is sooty doing that?

    Plenty of sooty bays/palis/browns/etc, fade as well.
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    Acc- let me dumb this down a bit for you.Negroes are black because they have more melanin in their skin and hair than do Caucasians. Their skin does not fade noticeably when out of the sun or darken when in the sun to any noticeable degree. Caucasians darken when in the sun but when out of the sun over time their skin color lightens considerably this is due to the lack of melanin.If the sooty gene darkens a light coat - why would it not darken( even though not visibly) a black coat? This extra melanin from the sooty gene in a black coat is what prevents fading.Just because it is an old well documented theory doesn't make it an inaccurate one either. Horses with the sooty gene do fade but don't fade as light as horses with out it -- remember black hair already has more melanin in it than lighter colors have to begin with. The sooty gene just adds more melanin to the black coat that already has more melanin than the other coat colors have.Example: dark chestnuts don't fade to the degree the LIGHT chestnuts fade-- Dark palominos when faded are still darker than faded light palominos.Melanin is cumulative in coat color!!!

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    My dark liver chestnut fades way more than my light chestnut

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseGeek View Post
    <snip> The sooty gene just adds more melanin to the black coat that already has more melanin than the other coat colors have.Example: dark chestnuts don't fade to the degree the LIGHT chestnuts fade-- Dark palominos when faded are still darker than faded light palominos.Melanin is cumulative in coat color!!!
    Just wanted to chime in that the WORST FADING HORSE I've ever owned in my life is my current mare - a dark liver chestnut Morgan who turns orange/beige due to fading.

    While our FLAME-RED-ORANGE mare doesn't fade a single stitch. She stays the same shade of red no matter what.

    Both these horses live together, are out 24/7 and have the same diet.

    Here's Fancy when she is "freshly -shed", so is till dark:





    And here's Fancy when she's BLEACHED-OUT. She does this every season




    Her "winter coat", badly faded/bleached:


    As opposed to Nikki:

    And here's Nikki, the RED HEAD, who never ever changes color. She simply does not bleach-out at all. A true non-fading chestnut (LOL)
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    My horse is a non fading black. He is as black as they come. He doesn't lighten up at all in the summer or in the sun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HorseGeek View Post
    Acc- let me dumb this down a bit for you.Negroes are black because they have more melanin in their skin and hair than do Caucasians. Their skin does not fade noticeably when out of the sun or darken when in the sun to any noticeable degree. Caucasians darken when in the sun but when out of the sun over time their skin color lightens considerably this is due to the lack of melanin.If the sooty gene darkens a light coat - why would it not darken( even though not visibly) a black coat? This extra melanin from the sooty gene in a black coat is what prevents fading.Just because it is an old well documented theory doesn't make it an inaccurate one either. Horses with the sooty gene do fade but don't fade as light as horses with out it -- remember black hair already has more melanin in it than lighter colors have to begin with. The sooty gene just adds more melanin to the black coat that already has more melanin than the other coat colors have.Example: dark chestnuts don't fade to the degree the LIGHT chestnuts fade-- Dark palominos when faded are still darker than faded light palominos.Melanin is cumulative in coat color!!!
    I still don't believe this is accurate. It just doesn't make sense. A non-fading black will not fade in any area, which would mean that the sooty gene would need to add melanin uniformly through the coat to cover every place to keep the horse from fading anywhere. While it may be possible for it to occur, I wouldn't honestly believe that it is the cause for non-fading blacks.

    Please find me a non-black sooty that is uniformly covered. Or, better yet, provide me with SOME scientific proof - preferably something peer reviewed from a well-known source of genetic information in equines.

    And there are horses who will fade evenly throughout MOST of the body - my uncle's bay tb looks like a completely different horse at different times of year depending on sun exposure. He is a rich red bay normally, but will sometimes look almost as light red/orange as our red dun mare, from points all the way up towards his neck. If he were black the sooty would need to cover nearly his entire body, which is not typical of sooty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HorseGeek View Post
    Acc- let me dumb this down a bit for you.
    Little rude there?

    Negroes are black because they have more melanin in their skin and hair than do Caucasians. Their skin does not fade noticeably when out of the sun or darken when in the sun to any noticeable degree.
    Have you never seen tan lines on a black person?


    If the sooty gene darkens a light coat - why would it not darken( even though not visibly) a black coat? This extra melanin from the sooty gene in a black coat is what prevents fading.
    That makes no sense, since plenty of obviously sooty palominos, browns, bays, buckskins, etc, DO fade.


    Horses with the sooty gene do fade but don't fade as light as horses with out it --
    How do you know that? Are you saying there can be an invisible sooty that prevents a regular bay horse from fading?


    Example: dark chestnuts don't fade to the degree the LIGHT chestnuts fade-- Dark palominos when faded are still darker than faded light palominos.Melanin is cumulative in coat color!!!
    That has nothing to do with sooty though How are you measuring this "degree"? If both the light and dark chestnut fade to only 70% of the color saturation as their "pure" color, is that the same degree? Are you (or anyone?) out there measuring this? You can't look at how light a faded light chestnut is vs how light a faded liver chestnut is and say the light one faded more.

    The point about uniform distribution of sooty is a good one. Does my horse (which you have ignored) only have sooty in his non-saddle area? that is the only place that fades in the Winter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBandRio View Post
    If the horse is E?aa, he is a true black whether he fades or not.

    My horse is a fading black, but his new Spring and Fall coats, pre-fading, are very blue-black.
    Same with my stallion. His genetic testing shows he is in fact black but I know he is a "fading black" (I hate it but what can you do?). BUT right now he is so black with his fall/winter coat he is almost blue. (wish he was like this year round)
    Last edited by FriesianSH; 11-16-2010 at 07:41 AM.
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