[Sue B]

I was talking with a trainer over the weekend...this isn't just your backyard horse/colt trainer....he is big $$ take 'em to the money guy. He is very oriented to maintaining the feeding program that the horse comes in on so that when it goes home, it hasn't made the adjustment to his feeding program and then have to go back again.

He noted that when he gets horses that have been grain fed that they tend to require more conditioning, lose more weight at the onset of work and require much more feed as they go into a hard work routine.

On the other hand, he noted that horses that have been on low grain or no grain diets require less conditioning/muscle building work, have little to no issues transitioning to work (eg. sore muscles, muscle tightness), maintain their weight and require little in the line of increased feeding as their work load increases.

Any opinions, comments....other observations?

[missrightwing]

Most horses do not need grain. If horses are low-work (pleasure horses, backyard animals, trail horses) then they don't usually need grain. High-endurance horse (cutters, reiners, jumpers, racers) generally are the ones who need grain. If your horses is getting enough roughage, that is usually enough. Graining too much can set you up for a whole host of health problems.

[Sue B]

Yes, we seem to all generally agree on the need for gain for performance horses....however, this trainer is saying that he doesn't like to see them on grain either....for the reasons that I noted above. He finds that they do much better on alternative diets.

[imacowgirl2]

I wish more trainers like that would broadcast their opinion more...I'm of the belief that the more forage based a diet can be, the better, especially for horses that are having medical problems, but it appears that this thinking is counter-intuitive to most people...regular joes and professionals alike. I think if we saw some more big name people with good reputations talking about how they like to see their horses on a forage diet, we'd be better off because it would become more accepted.

[Banat]

How interesting. Thanks for posting this topic. I've never noticed this before, but I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind now.

Human athletes don't eat a diet high in NSC's for good reason, although horses and humans are two different things, there has to be some correlation.

[JBandRio]

I find his observations totally fascinating and totally believable. It's already been proven that horses don't deal with all those carbs very well, that many more horse have EPSM or "pre-EPSM" (my terminology since I don't know if it's officially called anything) than people think, therefore it's not at all surprising that horses on grain diets have a harder time with conditioning and muscle issues.

Also, it would be interesting to know from him how much of the grains those horses were getting in relation to the recommended amounts. Since many fitness/muscle/weight issues can be traced to not enough vitamins and minerals in the diet, I wonder of those grain-horses aren't being fed enough to meet their nutritional needs, and since the owners think they are fine since they're feeding a fortified grain that they don't have to add a vit/min supplement. And, I'd like to know if the no-grain horses DO get a vit/min or ration balancer, since it seems most folks who go the no-grain route are verse enough in nutrition that they know they likely DO need to add nutritional value to the diet.

[PeggySue]

My two cents ... since switching my horses to ration balancer with no hay I have seen alot of improvements .. the one my son has noticed is that his mare is much more willing and able to perform better for him... it not longer takes him forever to get her to lope off .. they act and look so much better... I tend to be a weekend warrior so my horses are fat and out of shape then I wanan hop on and go for long rides .. since taking them off of grain I am saving money on feed and linament they are no longer getting as sore when I forget and over do it

[wyldterv]

Interesting... I have perhaps an unusual case in Dancer...

I have tried her on a total non-grain based diet while under a HARD work load. She lost weight even with upping of alfalfa pellets, having 16-18 hours a day of quality pasture grazing and quality Orchard grass hay during stalled times. She also was receiving 2 lbs of Rice Bran and 6 lbs of BOSS plus 1/2 pound of fresh ground flax meal and a good quality ration balancer.

She was begining to lose weight with the work load. Yes teeth and parasite issues were checked... none present.

SO after careful consideration, I looked around and put her on a high fat, high fiber, high performance designed feed (LMF GOLD). I have kept her on alfalfa pellets, same grazing schedule and she's on 6 lbs (the minimum recommended for her weight is 5) a day plus still gets added fresh ground flax meal. and VOILA she's gained 50 lbs and is looking almost PERFECT for showing condition.

If I put my 3 yr old on this diet, he'd be FAT So I do think it may be dependent to a degree on different horses honestly.

Generally, though, I find less grains are better.

[Sue B]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Also, it would be interesting to know from him how much of the grains those horses were getting in relation to the recommended amounts. Since many fitness/muscle/weight issues can be traced to not enough vitamins and minerals in the diet, I wonder of those grain-horses aren't being fed enough to meet their nutritional needs, and since the owners think they are fine since they're feeding a fortified grain that they don't have to add a vit/min supplement. And, I'd like to know if the no-grain horses DO get a vit/min or ration balancer, since it seems most folks who go the no-grain route are verse enough in nutrition that they know they likely DO need to add nutritional value to the diet.

Good questions JB...I should have put more detail into my originial post.

In general, he was finding that most people were feeding the recommended amounts or more.

And, yes, the no grain horses were fed supplementation....either no grain feeds or all forage diets that had a vit/min added.

Another interesting take related to this would be the information that Dr. Kellon provided in her book. She charts the nutrition needs of horses in various levels of work compared to feeding either legume or grass hay and supplemented with standard common feeds and/or oats. The bottom line was that if the horses were over or under fed while not being correspondingly worked, they suffered nutritional deficits. So, over feeding the non-working horse causes just as much lack of proper nutrition as under feeding the working horse.

[Sue B]

Originally Posted by wyldterv

If I put my 3 yr old on this diet, he'd be FAT So I do think it may be dependent to a degree on different horses honestly.

Generally, though, I find less grains are better.

Yes, I don't think that this trainer would say that ALL horses should go totally grainless....but he would like to see them on at least low grain diets. By that, I don't think he was talking feeding less feed...but feeding products with less grain, more fiber in them.

I agree that some horses do seem to need more carbs than others....not a lot more...but some difference. I wonder if there is any correlation between the horses that have more quick twitch muscle (TBs) and those with slow twitch muscle (drafts) and the "need" for more carbs as fuel for the quick twitch?