[Reinergirl23]

Originally Posted by Lou3

Anyone doing this much lunging with a two year is just ASKING for a horse that is permenantly lame by the time they're 10 years old or even before.
I wouldnt dream of lunging a horse at ALL until they're three, and then only at a walk and trot. NO cantering until they're four and its solid and balanced under saddle in straight lines.

I'm not trying to get into an argument with you. But I respectfully disagree. I had a yearling bs paint halter horse. And I lunged her daily. She was never lame and went on to do barrels and gaming type stuff. She's 15 now..and she was started under saddle as a 2 year old..

[Auzzie Honey]

Turning her out to grow up for a year is not an option because like cutter said, to show in a futurity at the end of her 3 year old year would not be an option, because she would be so far behind. I originally bought her to show and then resell her, although that might be extremely difficult cuz I'm already so attached to her!! She's one of the sweetest, smartest horses I've ever owned!

I took this quote from another thread, however, I believe it applies:

Originally Posted by 2spotslast

... Turn that baby out until spring when she's a three year old. Let her grow up before you start asking her to work like a physically and mentally mature horse.

This young girl is 4 years old. She enjoys playing in the sun, going on picnics with her family, sleeping, and finger painting. She loves to play with her friends, go to parties, and have a good game of hide and seek - just like any other young kid.

This 4 and a half year old girl (photo curtious of google.com) is the same age as your horse in 'human years'. I'm not out to get you, I just want to help you better understand, because to be honest, it doesn't look like you do. Your horse is young. Her joints are young. She needs time to physically and mentall mature. Let her play and be a horse ..

Some more information you may find interesting:

before riding the horse, it's best to wait "until his knees close" (i.e., until the growth plates convert from cartilage to bone, fusing the epiphysis or bone-end to the diaphysis or bone-shaft). What people often don't realize is that there is a "growth plate" on either end of every bone behind the skull, and in the case of some bones (like the pelvis, which has many "corners") there are multiple growth plates.
So do you then have to wait until all these growth plates convert to bone? No. But the longer you wait, the safer you'll be. Owners and trainers need to realize there's a definite, easy-to-remember schedule of fusion – and then make their decision as to when to ride the horse based on that rather than on the external appearance of the horse.

So how do you know when these bones are ready?

Short pastern - top and bottom between birth and 6 months.

Long pastern - top and bottom between 6 months and one year.

Cannon bone - top and bottom between 8 months and 1.5 years

Small bones of the knee - top and bottom of each, between 1.5 and 2.5 years

Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 years

Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 years

Humerus - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years

Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion – between 3.5 and 4 years

Hindlimb - lower portions same as forelimb

Hock - this joint is "late" for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial and fibular tarsals don't fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known "weak point" - even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks).

Tibia - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years

Femur - bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years; neck, between 2.5 and 3 years; major and 3rd trochanters, between 2.5 and 3 years

Pelvis - growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 years.

I'm not trying to suggest to wait til your horse is 10 years old to start riding, but just to aid you to better understand how long it takes for these bones to fully mature. This is why so many people wait for their horses to be 3 years old before their first backing, then 4 years before proper ridden work.

Why is it so important to compete at this show? Why is it not more important to give your horse time to mature and grow up. She's an already broken in 2 year old .. give her a chance to play. She will never again get this oppertunity to play and be a kid.

Hope this helped.

[xxJewelxx]

Auzzie Honey, I couldn't agree more with you!!

[dotgotcalm]

Oh gosh! Is this debate still going on?

If you are going to try training her yourself then by all means go ahead and start working on body control, i.e. working off your leg. I start teaching the turn arounds at 2. Just asking for a single cross over step, releasing, and letting them walk out when I get that single good step. Everyone blames hock injuries in reiners on the stops but personally I think it's more apt to be from the torque placed on the joint during spins so, I'd recommend that you put her in 3/4" plates with a slightly rolled or beveled toe before you begin working on turn arounds. I want the plates on before one ever thinks about planting a pivot foot so that when they do, the plate will allow their foot to slip along the ground rather than digging in.

Also, start building the desire and the positive association with the stop by simply using whoa, and a short break, as reward for almost everything she does well. Yes, it takes a little longer this way but in the end she'll want to stop.

Ah, the apprentice question! LOL That's the big rub. The problem with really well known trainers, in any discipline, is that they are well known because they show. If they show then they spend a lot of time on the road and away from their barns so, you end up paying big name prices for the big name trainer's apprentices to actually train your horse. If owners who paid the big bucks actually knew how little the "name" rode their horse they'd be floored! There are a couple of reining trainers I could name who only ride Open futurity prospects. That's all they have time for on the two or three days a week that they are home between shows. Personally, when someone tells me that "so and so" trained their horse, and the name is a big one, I know that isn't true. So and so's apprentices did all the day to day work on the horse. I'd bet money that the trainer wouldn't recognize their horse if he tripped over it! So, what's an owner to do? You can look for a trainer who doesn't show heavily but then you have no way of rating the kind of horse they turn out unless they have a pretty long list of horses they've trained who the owners have shown and done well on. Those are hard to find. The other alternative is to find a trainer who has really good apprentices and who manages them and supervises them very well. Don't laugh, I'm serious. I've worked for trainers who had no idea, and didn't really care, what I was doing with "his" horses while he was away and others who micro managed ever tiny detail of what I did via constant phone calls, video tapes, and intense tests when he was around, "Pull that bay colt out and let me see where you're at." So, my advice would be to find a trainer who's non pro horses are doing well. Don't waste your time looking at his futurity colts or his derby horses. He's likely riding those himself. Look at the non pro's because his apprentice is riding those and that's who'll likely do 95% of the work on your horse.

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by Reinergirl23

I'm not trying to get into an argument with you. But I respectfully disagree. I had a yearling bs paint halter horse. And I lunged her daily. She was never lame and went on to do barrels and gaming type stuff. She's 15 now..and she was started under saddle as a 2 year old..

Then you got lucky,
Lunging youngsters has been PROVEN to cause spinal deformities and joint deformities. This is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact. Lunging youngsters causes long term physical harm and is therefore cruelty.

[gluey33]

Dot that stuff about trainers is great. It makes so much sense

[Reinergirl23]

Originally Posted by dotgotcalm

Oh gosh! Is this debate still going on?

If you are going to try training her yourself then by all means go ahead and start working on body control, i.e. working off your leg. I start teaching the turn arounds at 2. Just asking for a single cross over step, releasing, and letting them walk out when I get that single good step. Everyone blames hock injuries in reiners on the stops but personally I think it's more apt to be from the torque placed on the joint during spins so, I'd recommend that you put her in 3/4" plates with a slightly rolled or beveled toe before you begin working on turn arounds. I want the plates on before one ever thinks about planting a pivot foot so that when they do, the plate will allow their foot to slip along the ground rather than digging in.

Also, start building the desire and the positive association with the stop by simply using whoa, and a short break, as reward for almost everything she does well. Yes, it takes a little longer this way but in the end she'll want to stop.

Ah, the apprentice question! LOL That's the big rub. The problem with really well known trainers, in any discipline, is that they are well known because they show. If they show then they spend a lot of time on the road and away from their barns so, you end up paying big name prices for the big name trainer's apprentices to actually train your horse. If owners who paid the big bucks actually knew how little the "name" rode their horse they'd be floored! There are a couple of reining trainers I could name who only ride Open futurity prospects. That's all they have time for on the two or three days a week that they are home between shows. Personally, when someone tells me that "so and so" trained their horse, and the name is a big one, I know that isn't true. So and so's apprentices did all the day to day work on the horse. I'd bet money that the trainer wouldn't recognize their horse if he tripped over it! So, what's an owner to do? You can look for a trainer who doesn't show heavily but then you have no way of rating the kind of horse they turn out unless they have a pretty long list of horses they've trained who the owners have shown and done well on. Those are hard to find. The other alternative is to find a trainer who has really good apprentices and who manages them and supervises them very well. Don't laugh, I'm serious. I've worked for trainers who had no idea, and didn't really care, what I was doing with "his" horses while he was away and others who micro managed ever tiny detail of what I did via constant phone calls, video tapes, and intense tests when he was around, "Pull that bay colt out and let me see where you're at." So, my advice would be to find a trainer who's non pro horses are doing well. Don't waste your time looking at his futurity colts or his derby horses. He's likely riding those himself. Look at the non pro's because his apprentice is riding those and that's who'll likely do 95% of the work on your horse.

LOL, yes the debate is still going on... I don't know why, because I have already stated several times that I will not be turning her out until she is 3...

Thanks for posting dot! Lots of great info!!

Yesterday I was actually working on getting the start of a turnaround, I got her to cross over a few times. Sometimes she kind of resists turning a bit, not bad, but I just have to really lay my leg on her... Is there any way I can get her softer to where I don't have to use as much pressure??

Thanks for shedding some light on the trainer/apprentice situation! I guess seeing what kind of horses they turn out is a clue... I wonder if you straight out ask them how many times they will be on your horse a week, if they will answer truthfully?

[Reinergirl23]

Originally Posted by Auzzie Honey

I'm not trying to suggest to wait til your horse is 10 years old to start riding, but just to aid you to better understand how long it takes for these bones to fully mature. This is why so many people wait for their horses to be 3 years old before their first backing, then 4 years before proper ridden work.

Why is it so important to compete at this show? Why is it not more important to give your horse time to mature and grow up. She's an already broken in 2 year old .. give her a chance to play. She will never again get this oppertunity to play and be a kid.

Hope this helped.

I understand you are trying to help....but as I have said before..I will not be turning her out until she is 3. She will be a reiner and she CANNOT get that far behind!! It is important to compete at this show because that is the main reason I bought her. I bought her to put time on her, show her, and then sell her!

[gluey33]

Originally Posted by Reinergirl23

Yesterday I was actually working on getting the start of a turnaround, I got her to cross over a few times. Sometimes she kind of resists turning a bit, not bad, but I just have to really lay my leg on her... Is there any way I can get her softer to where I don't have to use as much pressure??

Have you tried a bit of work using your hand where your foot goes. It really helped Ben standing beside him and teaching him what it means to yield. softened him up heaps. Hes one of those laid back types that has a delay button before he reacts and this got him way more responsive.

[Horse_Girl9804]

I have a 2 y/o. I've lunged him 2 times. I've had him 3 months. I've ridden him 2 times. I DO NOT plan on riding him (again) untill he is three. Its WAAAAY too much stress on his joints.

But hey, its America. Your free to do whatever you want to. F*** up your horse. Go ahead. See where she ends up, just because you pushed her to hard when she wasn't ready. Just for that one show, so you could sell her and make money. Go for it.