[tbtrainer]

[quote=Lou3;3104459]
Have you even conditioned this filly properly for a rider? I spend MONTHS starting in the 2 year old year, walking in hand and long lining up and down gentle hills, doing carrot stretches, ponying the youngster to get some good trot on it to get it fit enough to carry a rider for the first time. A youngster being backed should be as fit and conditioned as a finished show horse before they carry a rider for the first time. You cant just pull a youngster out of the field when its only been taught ground manners etc, lunge it a few times and then get straight on, the conditioning MUST come first. Even on older horses coming back into work after a long time off I spend a little while lunging and then a good few weeks walking and trotting in realtively straight lines on the roads and trails before I would dream of asking them to do something as physically difficult as cantering a circle.


I agree with everything but this statement... I sure dont want a horse that fit for the first riding experience... if something goes wrong, your going to be in trouble with a dead fit horse!

[IIIBarsV]

I'm not so hard-core about them being in shape until they're 3 and we're starting to do more loping. Even then, it's ok if they're a bit fat. More importantly is to keep them dewormed regularly, their hoof care up to date and correct (no long toes!!!!!! Long toes are the real leveller of horse's joints!), and keep good weight on them. You don't want them to get ribby (sometimes unavoidable in a horse with high metabolism/energy, or who's growing a ton... keep the feed up so you can't feel ribs, lots of forage, etc.... take a trip to the Health Forums if you need ideas on feeding).

They don't have to be Event-Horse fit for walking and trotting.

[Mira]

In the OP's defense, a lot of horses are started at or around 2. And a lot of those horses end up just fine when they get older. What I'd like to know is exactly how old this horse is. (ex. 2yrs 5mnths, etc) If she's at or over 2 1/2, I say you're going about the pace you should and follow the advice others here have given you. (Advice of the people that didn't say 'turn her out for a year' 'don't lope her' etc.)

Just make sure to take it easy with her 'cause she's still a baby. When you lope her, don't make her do laps. Go a little ways then stop and do something else that she knows. Hope I helped some.
Something like this happened to me when I first bought my horse. I posted on a different forum that I got a 2yr 9mnth year old and.. wow all **** broke loose. I had mentioned I was riding him in a twisted snaffle and suddenly I'm the horrible horse abuser and my horse was going to be hard mouthed and have sores.. Ha. People told me to turn him out for a year or two. I was like 'um...no?'. lmao Ah, good times. xD And now, he's 4yrs 5mnths and perfectly healthy. No lameness issues, cute movement, soft mouth. And those people were oh so certain.

[cutter123]

IIIBarsV, I sure appreciate your valuable contributions to many posts, but I feel I must clarify something for people who might be misled by your judgement about reining horses/trainers, which seems to be based on experience with ONE reining barn?

First off, not all reining barns are filled with crippled horses. Is reining tough on horses? Yes, it is physically demanding. Just like barrel racing
I am in a position to observe many performance horse trainers at practices and at their barns. I have ridden their horses and helped them with them. This includes four California reiners, and none of them have a barn full of crippled horses. One I mention is the winningest reining trainer in California. And no offense, but I believe California is "bigger" in reining than Ontario?

As for Game Ready, for those who do not know what it is, let me explain. Game Ready is an ice delivering machine for use on the legs for cold therapy. You put ice in the machine, set it for however long you want it to work (20 minutes, etc) and then wrap the wraps around the horse's legs. The ice makes them cold. The use of a Game Ready system HARDLY means that a horse is crippled. It sure is a great therapy for both horses that have had injuries and as a preventative maintenence. It uses no drugs, nothing unnatural, and I sure would rather use it than something like pinfiring or injections. As for how many people have them, I have been to countless cutting horse barns, and out of 10 I can think of off the top of my head, 3 have them. One of the reiners I mentioned has one. I would certainly have one if I had money to buy one, although I have no crippled horses. It would be an asset to anyone who rides performance horses, including barrel racers

As for that, I have seen horrendous barrel racers with tons of crippled horses. I know one such trainer who lives near us. She is the "top" barrel trainer around here, too. Do I judge all barrel racers by her? Not a bit.

[Reinergirl23]

Originally Posted by TCAdams610

I have been breaking horses for years, we do 30 days ground work followed by 8 days under saddle. About 20 min at a time, then turn them out till they are 3. We bring them back at 3 and slowly work them through the simple stuff. When they get that we move on, how long depends on the horse. All of our horses are rock solid by the time they hit 4. Our roping horses are not started roping till they turn 5. Our rening horses are finished by the time tey hit 4. You know your horse best just look for his clues, take it easy and have fun. Best of luck to you and your horse.

Thanks for the good wishes! I'll definitely be keeping a lookout for signs that I may be pushing her too hard! Thanks for the advice!

Originally Posted by Auzzie Honey

Can I ask why not?
I don't see a problem turning out a horse to grow up for a year . .a year is nothing compared to the years of work ahead.. am curious, that's all

Turning her out to grow up for a year is not an option because like cutter said, to show in a futurity at the end of her 3 year old year would not be an option, because she would be so far behind. I originally bought her to show and then resell her, although that might be extremely difficult cuz I'm already so attached to her!! She's one of the sweetest, smartest horses I've ever owned!

Originally Posted by cutter123

I can't answer for the OP auzzie honey, since I don't know her plans, but it could be that she plans on showing this horse at a Futurity at the end of her 3 year old year. In that case, a year off would put her too far behind to be ready for a Futurity.

cutter- you are right on the money!!

Originally Posted by irideazip

I know what you mean! My friend's filly does the same thing, so we go light on the lateral undersaddle...but still work her vertically so she can get more used to vertical pressure. It sounds like you have your head on straight and have a good plan on where to go from here. I wish you the best of luck and hope to see pics/vids of you and your filly some time soon!

Thanks!! I hope to get some vids of us as soon as I get into the big ring, I do have a bunch of pics, just need to get em uploaded to my pc!

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

I know western pleasure horses who are started as yearlings. Do I agree? No. But aside from the pissy attitude they all seem to get by the time they're four, they are sound for the most part.

I've heard of that, that is crazy!! When I was looking for a horse to buy, I had several trainers tell me that if I bought a yearling from them, they would probably be strong enough to jump on them the fall of their yearling year! just bareback and with a halter and walk around, but still!!

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

Reiners? Well, my mom is right in with some of the top reiners in Ontario... they all own at least one GameReady Equine machine. Why? Because reining is a very physically strenuous sport to be in, and the training is NOT always that easy. These horses are trained on hard, and they go and win. They also bow tendons, blow out joints, and they require more preventative health care maintenance in terms of the health of their legs and joints than the average horse does.

Yes, reining is very physically demanding sport! I want to take it pretty easy with Lucy at least until she is 3 and I always use protective boots to keep her legs protected!

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

Personally I'm not worried about the horse being ridden right now- it's what happens when she sends it to the trainer that we should all be worrying about! I have not seen what I would call a "gentle" reining trainer yet.

yeah, I'm sure I'm taking it a lot easier on her than the trainer I would send her too! I have seen a few "gentle" reining trainers, but they are few and far between. The "gentle" ones don't seem to get the same results as the tougher trainers do, sadly.. At least from my experience..

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

We start our young quarter horses at two, lightly. We spend at least a month on ground work, play around on the lunge line, and set our walk/trot/canter/whoa cues on the lunge first with tack. We always start with a smooth-mouth snaffle, preferably a full-cheek (clearer communication to the horse). Noseband, too, adjusted so that it hangs about a 1/2 inch off the lower jaw. We do not use drop nosebands or crank them on tightly. Sessions are kept short- no longer than 45 mins of playing around, reinforcing ground work followed up with 20 mins of in-saddle.

Right now I have her in a copper D ring snaffle, she seems to respond pretty well to. I am really trying to keep off her mouth because I want her to continue to be really light in the mouth!! Our sessions are usually about 30 min long...but right now it's a little warm up free longing to get her attention on me first (she will walk, trot, canter, and whoa on command free longing!) then I get on and we mainly walk with maybe like 5 minutes of jogging!!

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

Honestly, what your trainer will appreciate more is a young horse who has good steering, backs nicely, and knows things like moving off leg, giving to the bit, all the little manuevering things. Reining isn't about loping everywhere, believe it or not- it's about how manueverable your horse is. You can start teaching her the beginnings of neckreining/leg steering, and turning on the haunches (slowly- just pushing the shoulder around, not spinning).

Sounds like a pretty good foundation! I still have a lot to work on, getting her to turn on the haunches, control of her shoulders and her back end, and of course loping and transitions!! Right now she has pretty decent steering at the walk and trot, she is backing nicely, she is in the beginning stages of neck reining. Whenever I ride I always lay the outside rein on her neck and she is getting better at moving off my leg!

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

When you have the bigger pen available, start on the lunge first- every single ride, walk, trot, canter, whoa (with your saddle done up) to reinforce. Make sure that when you ask the mare to canter, she does it quickly, and if she starts broncing, crack her bum with the lunge whip and simultaneously prevent her from taking off (rope halter, jerk jerk jerk), and continue asking her until she settles down and lopes around normally without bucking. After she maintains a nice steady canter for two circles, ask her to whoa, and reward, let her have a break. So basically, keep her cantering until she does it properly without even thinking about bucking, then let her know she's done the right thing by letting her stop working.

Great advice! She actually has never bucked on the lunge line or in the round pen (just that once under saddle), she's usually pretty lazy unless I am asking her to move out, then she will do it. (like if I turn her out just to play, she'll just pretty much stand there most of the time, walking around sniffing poop! lol

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

Then you get to try it from the saddle, starting from a trot- if she's sluggish, reach for your crop, not your spurs, even though reiners loooooove their spurs. You will get better results from a bite on the bum than a poke in the belly. Spurs are NOT for forward. They are for the manuevers. Even if you're wearing spurs, carry a crop too and above all, resist the urge to use your spurs at all when you're asking her to lope. Give her a crack on the rump instead. She will associate that with the lungewhip and understand "oh, she wants me to go faster".

I'm not big on spurs, If I can get her to do what I want, I'd rather not use spurs! Again, good advice! Thanks

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

Keep asking her to canter until, like on the lungeline, she is not trying to buck and just canters along nicely. Don't worry about steering unless you're going into a corner... gently steer. Allow your reins to be short enough that if you need contact, you've got it, but don't try and slow her down. Let her lope and balance with your weight. For the first cantering/loping lessons, as soon as they do it nice, I let them go only the length of the long side of the pen, and then ask for a trot/walk/whoa and let them relax. You have to slowly build up to it- everything needs to be slowly built up to.

Starting from the trot into the canter is much easier in the long run because it means "CANTER NOW" and it's easier for the horse to react to. As they progress and get stronger, you can change the anty by asking them to canter as quickly as they can from a walk (try to minimize trot steps), or canter a bit longer. I do not canter young horses more than once around my pen (but my pen is a full hunter ring, 250' x 150', so it's pretty big!) until they've been under saddle for at least 4 months (if they're 3 and under).

You don't want to tire them out too much when they're this young, because that's when you'll get a sour horse (exception is the horse who runs everywhere- my 5 yr old, you can work the heck out of her and she'll still meet you at the gate and push everybody else out of the way. She is very forward and a very hard worker.) I had a 4 yr old reining-bred mare in for training a couple years ago. She was extremely atheletic but extremely lazy, extremely sensitive. She had never been ridden and barely haltered most of her life, but seriously, within 6 weeks, she could've gone to a horse show and won western pleasure. She was incredibly smart. Walk, trot/jog, slow canter, low-headed, and would slide a bit from a canter (she was VERY lazy! anything to stop faster, she'd do it!), moved off leg, picked up on neckreining in like a day. I find most reining horses to be very quick and easy learners, which is why I'm completely baffled as to why most reining trainers are so rough on their horses.

Play around a lot at the walk and trot (extend trot, medium trot, jog), serpentine, push her around a bit with your legs, get a nice back up (I don't care how old they are, EVERY horse should have a decent back-up), and lope her enough that she knows how to do it without giving you trouble. Even 3 yr old futurity horses don't have to be perfect.

Thanks for posting!! Again, great advice!!! I will definitely be using some of your suggestions when it comes to loping in the big pen!

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

I'm not so hard-core about them being in shape until they're 3 and we're starting to do more loping. Even then, it's ok if they're a bit fat. More importantly is to keep them dewormed regularly, their hoof care up to date and correct (no long toes!!!!!! Long toes are the real leveller of horse's joints!), and keep good weight on them. You don't want them to get ribby (sometimes unavoidable in a horse with high metabolism/energy, or who's growing a ton... keep the feed up so you can't feel ribs, lots of forage, etc.... take a trip to the Health Forums if you need ideas on feeding).

They don't have to be Event-Horse fit for walking and trotting.

That's good to know about the long toes compromising their joints..I'll make sure I keep her trimmed on schedule! She is on a worming schedule with Strongid/Ivermectin. I actually just had them increase her hay to 2 flakes in the morning. She is in a 12X12 stall and I want her to be able to eat longer than a few hours in the morning! She's definitely not skinny, but I don't think she's fat either, pretty ideal!

Originally Posted by Mira

In the OP's defense, a lot of horses are started at or around 2. And a lot of those horses end up just fine when they get older. What I'd like to know is exactly how old this horse is. (ex. 2yrs 5mnths, etc) If she's at or over 2 1/2, I say you're going about the pace you should and follow the advice others here have given you. (Advice of the people that didn't say 'turn her out for a year' 'don't lope her' etc.)

Right now she is actually 2 years 6 months.

Originally Posted by Mira

Just make sure to take it easy with her 'cause she's still a baby. When you lope her, don't make her do laps. Go a little ways then stop and do something else that she knows. Hope I helped some.
Something like this happened to me when I first bought my horse. I posted on a different forum that I got a 2yr 9mnth year old and.. wow all **** broke loose. I had mentioned I was riding him in a twisted snaffle and suddenly I'm the horrible horse abuser and my horse was going to be hard mouthed and have sores.. Ha. People told me to turn him out for a year or two. I was like 'um...no?'. lmao Ah, good times. xD And now, he's 4yrs 5mnths and perfectly healthy. No lameness issues, cute movement, soft mouth. And those people were oh so certain.

Thanks for the advice!! Yes, you helped! I'm glad to hear your horse is doing great!

Originally Posted by cutter123

First off, not all reining barns are filled with crippled horses. Is reining tough on horses? Yes, it is physically demanding. Just like barrel racing
I am in a position to observe many performance horse trainers at practices and at their barns. I have ridden their horses and helped them with them. This includes four California reiners, and none of them have a barn full of crippled horses. One I mention is the winningest reining trainer in California. And no offense, but I believe California is "bigger" in reining than Ontario?

I'm just curious where in California are you at! I could definitely use some suggestions on where to send her if you are close to me! I'm about 30 min. north of Los Angeles! I do have one trainer in mind (Tom Foran) but I think he will be pretty spendy, although I'm sure he'd do an awesome job!

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by Reinergirl23

I do have one trainer in mind (Tom Foran) but I think he will be pretty spendy, although I'm sure he'd do an awesome job!

I'm reminded of "you get what you pay for" here. I saw IIIBarsV comment about "reining trainers" and I also don't agree with it. I know MANY MANY MANY reining/cow trainers who are absolutely wonderful and turn out wonderful horses time after time. However, you are going to PAY for that service. It is not cheap for their time, but their time is worth it. Where I usually see the "harshness" is with those that are on the "cheap" end and that is also why they are cheap. You are not going to get the same quality training.

Also, those charging the "big bucks" are more liable to turn your horse away after the first few rides. They are smart enough to know if a horse is right for the job and they won't push one where it cannot go. Thus, they are training those with that natural tallent and not fighting one to do what it can't. Whereas, those "cheap" trainers will push as long as the client is willing to spend money. Again, where the "idea or impression comes in that a "discipline" has "no good, kind" trainers. Wrong, but the impression has been set in folks minds.

When I see someone stating

"I have not seen what I would call a "gentle" reining trainer yet."

I would bet that they are dealing with either something they don't understand or are exposed to the "lower" end of the pool.



ETA: This is not to say that more expensive=better all the time, as there are some "big boys" out there that are as worthless as dirt, but for the most part it's not that way.

[cutter123]

Hi reinergirl. I am in Northern California. I am not familiar with Tom Foran but that doesn't mean a whole lot. I am much more in the cutting and working cowhorse world. However, my best friend is a quite successful reining trainer from here, Sherry Perine. I will call her tomorrow and ask her for some recommendations for your area.
In order to get a good recommendation, it will help for me to know what your goals are. Do you want a top futurity prospect to be shown in the Open by the trainer? Or are you looking for a futurity prospect for yourself to show in the Non Pro or amateur and go on in weekend shows? Are you looking to also have lessons?

[Lou3]

[quote=tbtrainer;3106020]

Originally Posted by Lou3

Have you even conditioned this filly properly for a rider? I spend MONTHS starting in the 2 year old year, walking in hand and long lining up and down gentle hills, doing carrot stretches, ponying the youngster to get some good trot on it to get it fit enough to carry a rider for the first time. A youngster being backed should be as fit and conditioned as a finished show horse before they carry a rider for the first time. You cant just pull a youngster out of the field when its only been taught ground manners etc, lunge it a few times and then get straight on, the conditioning MUST come first. Even on older horses coming back into work after a long time off I spend a little while lunging and then a good few weeks walking and trotting in realtively straight lines on the roads and trails before I would dream of asking them to do something as physically difficult as cantering a circle.


I agree with everything but this statement... I sure dont want a horse that fit for the first riding experience... if something goes wrong, your going to be in trouble with a dead fit horse!

I meant a western pleasure show horse thats in light-medium work, not a super-fit event horse. The back muscles certainly need to be developed to the largest extent possible before sitting on that baby for the first time.

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

I know western pleasure horses who are started as yearlings. Do I agree? No. But aside from the pissy attitude they all seem to get by the time they're four, they are sound for the most part.

Reiners? Well, my mom is right in with some of the top reiners in Ontario... they all own at least one GameReady Equine machine. Why? Because reining is a very physically strenuous sport to be in, and the training is NOT always that easy. These horses are trained on hard, and they go and win. They also bow tendons, blow out joints, and they require more preventative health care maintenance in terms of the health of their legs and joints than the average horse does.

Personally I'm not worried about the horse being ridden right now- it's what happens when she sends it to the trainer that we should all be worrying about! I have not seen what I would call a "gentle" reining trainer yet.

Anywho, don't worry about loping so much until you've got a nice open pen to work loping straight lines in. Reining-bred horses are often much more balanced and stronger than most other breeds at a younger age- has to do with the way they're built. The greater width of chest and hip allows them to balance with weight much more easily than a narrower arabian or hunt seat/western pleasure-bred quarter horse.

We start our young quarter horses at two, lightly. We spend at least a month on ground work, play around on the lunge line, and set our walk/trot/canter/whoa cues on the lunge first with tack. We always start with a smooth-mouth snaffle, preferably a full-cheek (clearer communication to the horse). Noseband, too, adjusted so that it hangs about a 1/2 inch off the lower jaw. We do not use drop nosebands or crank them on tightly. Sessions are kept short- no longer than 45 mins of playing around, reinforcing ground work followed up with 20 mins of in-saddle.

Honestly, what your trainer will appreciate more is a young horse who has good steering, backs nicely, and knows things like moving off leg, giving to the bit, all the little manuevering things. Reining isn't about loping everywhere, believe it or not- it's about how manueverable your horse is. You can start teaching her the beginnings of neckreining/leg steering, and turning on the haunches (slowly- just pushing the shoulder around, not spinning).

When you have the bigger pen available, start on the lunge first- every single ride, walk, trot, canter, whoa (with your saddle done up) to reinforce. Make sure that when you ask the mare to canter, she does it quickly, and if she starts broncing, crack her bum with the lunge whip and simultaneously prevent her from taking off (rope halter, jerk jerk jerk), and continue asking her until she settles down and lopes around normally without bucking. After she maintains a nice steady canter for two circles, ask her to whoa, and reward, let her have a break. So basically, keep her cantering until she does it properly without even thinking about bucking, then let her know she's done the right thing by letting her stop working.

Anyone doing this much lunging with a two year is just ASKING for a horse that is permenantly lame by the time they're 10 years old or even before.
I wouldnt dream of lunging a horse at ALL until they're three, and then only at a walk and trot. NO cantering until they're four and its solid and balanced under saddle in straight lines.

[Reinergirl23]

Originally Posted by cutter123

Hi reinergirl. I am in Northern California. I am not familiar with Tom Foran but that doesn't mean a whole lot. I am much more in the cutting and working cowhorse world. However, my best friend is a quite successful reining trainer from here, Sherry Perine. I will call her tomorrow and ask her for some recommendations for your area.
In order to get a good recommendation, it will help for me to know what your goals are. Do you want a top futurity prospect to be shown in the Open by the trainer? Or are you looking for a futurity prospect for yourself to show in the Non Pro or amateur and go on in weekend shows? Are you looking to also have lessons?

I'm wanting to show her myself, I'd like her to be a nice non pro/amateur horse!! I would like lessons on her as she is learning! My dream has always been to train my own horses for resell, (I've apprenticed under a few good trainers) but am still far from being able to actually finish a reiner I think, but I'm sure as **** going to try first!

I know Tom Foran is a pretty big name trainer down here, and I've seen him show quite a few of his horses and they were all amazing!! I'm not sure how much reining training is going to cost. I know the barn where I worked at down here, it was $550 (board) plus $500 training (and most of the horses were ridden by myself 3-4 days of the week)!! I don't have that kind of money at the moment and also, I want my horse to be ridden by the trainer like 5 days a week, (not an apprentice!!) Nothing against apprentices, but I'm sure you understand that if you are forking out that kind of money, you want the actual trainer riding them!