[horseguy]

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

what if someone ends up with an instructor who they don't at all like their approach?? Should the student not get to sit down with the instructor and discuss this, with the student being able to use the phrase "I feel...."??

I just can't even imagine being able to get instruction from someone who wouldn't even care or want to listen to what I'm saying. Riding is ALL ABOUT FEEL, so you kinda need to listen to what the rider is saying, and find new and interesting ways to get through to the rider to do your best to teach them "what feel is". And to be able to do that, you really need to speak with them, and get an idea of their feelings, and ideas. At least I do!

“what if someone ends up with an instructor who they don't at all like their approach?? Should the student not get to sit down with the instructor and discuss this, with the student being able to use the phrase "I feel...."??”

I believe that if an adult riding student does not like an instructor’s approach they should find a different instructor. If it is a child, it is up to the parents.

In terms of “feel” there is emotional feelings and physical feel. The distinction is important. I will ask a student, for example, if they felt a loss of balance when I observe such so that I can better understand their body awareness, but too often lesson go off into being about how a new rider feels. Their stirrups feel uneven, the horse feels as if it is going to take off with them, etc. Nearly all of this is simply the fact that they do not feel comfortable riding a horse. I firmly believe I am not there to help them feel better about these kinds of feelings. If they feel scared, uncomfortable, etc. that is what they bring to the lesson. It is up to me to give them a correct horse for them to ride, and to teach them to ride correctly. Only they can work on their feelings.

If they are too distracted by their feelings I will tell them that it is interfering with the lessons and inquire why they are continuing. I get a wide range of answers. “My boyfriend rides and I want to ride with him.” Maybe the boyfriend needs to take up her game tennis instead, I don’t know. “I have been afraid of horses all my life and I want to over come that fear.” That’s fairly common. I explain that I can only teach someone to ride, and they must overcome their fears themselves. I do a lot of lunge line lessons where a student must drop the reins and spread their arms like wings and students say I am too afraid. I repeat, “Drop the reins and spread your arms.” Anything else would be inappropriate. It is my job to have the horse go evenly and have the rider experience success in the exercise. I’m not a psychologist, and when you open that door it makes for more difficulty, especially of you are not a trained professional in that area.

“I just can't even imagine being able to get instruction from someone who wouldn't even care or want to listen to what I'm saying.”

Well, I try not to be rude, but you might get a lot of, “Ah huhs” from me, followed by, “Eyes up and shoulders open”, or some such thing.

“Riding is ALL ABOUT FEEL.”

Yes, it is when you know what you need to be feeling, but before then it is not useful to get into what a student feels. I think if you are a competent instructor you can see what is going on and you prioritize the needed corrections and work on them.

The person who started this topic said she has ridden for two years and has not had lesson for a long time. What can she really know about “feel”? If she is a typical self taught rider with average athletic ability riding a less than perfectly trained horse, she is most likely a bundle of compensations. Her lower leg is probably unstable and she maintains balance with her upper body. It sounds like she has had enough riding so far where her incorrectness probably feels familiar, and thus comfortable. I particularly do not want to get into a discussion of how her riding feels with this type of rider. (StockHorseGirl , I have no idea how you ride I am using a typical rider with your amount of experience.)

My job with this type of rider is to undo muscle memory and sort out the muscle groups until the majority of their experience is correct and they can begin to feel proper balance. When a rider aquires correct muscle memory I hardly have to tell them. They know because it is effective. If you come to me and “feel” correct and try to convince me you are when you are not, I will set up an exercise to demonstrate that at you are not. Again, I hardly have to tell them aftert hey experience difficulty in an exercise.

“… you kinda need to listen to what the rider is saying, and find new and interesting ways to get through to the rider to do your best to teach them "what feel is". And to be able to do that, you really need to speak with them, and get an idea of their feelings, and ideas”.

My lessons are “Do this”, now do it better” with a small pointer in between for me. “Do” is the key here. “Feel” is what we correct, adjust, and improve, but it is accomplished by doing, not by talking and listening. We do talk about the physics of motion and balance, in a very intellectual way, with some students, but not often with a person who’s new to riding.

I am not in any way saying your method is wrong. I do know it is very popular with women. I had a women tell me last year that “I do not get women”. (I think she was trying to help me.) I told her that I do, but I do not teach in that way. Surprisingly, I have mostly women students. I now have two students who are therapists. It has occurred to me they come here for relief from that world.

[harli36]

I think a wonderful option for you would be to take lunge line lessons. That way you don't have to worry about your horse and can focus 100% on your seat.

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

Horseguy, I get what you're saying, but if someone is *afraid* then finding the reason WHY they are afraid is the answer. I most commonly get " she's pulling the reins out of my hands" or "she's running away with me" for answers. Many of these things are CAUSED by the riders, but it's up to the instructor to make the rider aware of that, which in many cases (in my experience) means taking a break and explaining how the horse feels when the rider does X, and this is there reaction, etc. But I wouldn't even get to that point if I didn't care about what the rider had to say.

If it's a child that doesn't like the instructors methods, it isn't always possible, as the parents don't always listen to their kids. As an adult, yes they would have that option, but at times it may be easier to discuss things with the coach. It's the preferred route of choice for me, no only as a student but also as an instructor.

Either way, I'm not saying that you're way it all better then mine, I'm just trying to understand how you're way works. I have seen it work, but it's most often after the rider has known the instructor for a bit. I know that my coach has on occasion done that with me (and some of my friends years ago) when they needed to be pushed through something, generally adding the comment "I wouldn't ask you to do something if I didn't think you could do it", but again not always.

I think it's really interesting to hear the other side of things....

[Lindsayanne]

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

I think it's really interesting to hear the other side of things....

I think coaches and instructors just have very different styles based on who they are, the level they teach, how they were taught, their own learning style, and a hundred other factors.

Most seem to think their their method is "the best" because it works for them, all trainers have probably lost students who were turned off or offended by their teaching methods, but that's par for the course, not every instructor can get equal improvement from every student.

Even within my current barn, we don't have a resident trainer so they bring in 2 or 3 different trainers regularly and we all haul out together. It's interesting and illustrative that after we've all ridden at least once or twice with each of these instructors, we all rank their teaching skills differently. Someone I wouldn't pay a dime to ride with other riders are forking out $$, and vice-a-versa.

My first trainer was similar to HorseGuy's approach and only after I left that trainer did I realize my horse's blossoming behavioral problems were a result of the physical tension created by following the instruction of someone who didn't have a healthy respect for my fear as an adult beginner. Many other riders accomplished great things riding with him, but after a year I started moving backwards and got the wake-up call to move on. I did, for three or four months after that, need a trainer that really, really coddled me just to be able to get me relaxed enough to get my horse simply forward and relaxed again, and then she referred me to a more competitive instructor who is tough but respects my feelings and pushing me at an appropriate pressure.

[JumpingBean]

Each to his own, I think. Myself, I would be at a loss if I were expected to say anything beyond answering an occasional question. Much as I love to gab on here, it is rare that I string together a complete sentence in real life. My trainer figured out pretty quickly that if I DO have anything to say, I wait until everything is over (unless it's important, which is rare) and go home and write him an e-mail. It seems to suit both of us.

The "feeling" has nothing to do with my personal mental state, and everything to do with what I'm feeling the horse doing. I usually hear "Do you feel that? Good! That's what you want him to be doing all the time." Or, "Do you feel that? You just lost the haunches."

And, less frequently, asking my opinion on pushing something harder. Last Saturday stuck in my mind because it was unusual -- at the end of the lesson he asked me if I thought the horse had one more in him (with the jump raised from 4'3" to 4'6" -- which would be a first for the horse and myself). Tricky because we do need to keep progressing, but even one bad experience in an otherwise good ride can easily set this particular horse back a few weeks, and as he gets tired he gets less brave. It's also the trainer's horse, and as much as I get to treat him like mine I always keep in the back of my head that this is someone else's horse I am potentially screwing up. We ended up doing it, and it worked out well -- it was imposing enough to make the horse hesitate heading down the gymnastic, but so entirely within his ability that I could push him past his fear and finish. He has to trust me enough to know that if I ask him to do something, he CAN do it. Same for a trainer-student relationship: asking me to do something is itself a confirmation that I CAN do it; I don't have to stop and think it over or question it.

[Buckshot]

R&B has given you some good advice;

Tell her what you said here!

[tia_leigha]

Its so interesting how us horse people are so set in our ways

Its always a "My way or the highway" way of thinking when it comes to horses and their people's rules.
"My barn- deal with it"

Those attitudes can be intimidating and unpleasant..
I understand where caution is important with such expensive material and horses, but some people should really lighten up these days

[tia_leigha]

Let me clarify...
I am talking about the crazy kind
The vet I used to work for would flip out if the hose was coiled back up wrong
Also, she better not have ever found 1 spec of poop in the stalls..not even a tiny spec.

[horseguy]

Originally Posted by tia_leigha

... Its always a "My way or the highway" way of thinking when it comes to horses and their people's rules. "My barn- deal with it" Those attitudes can be intimidating and unpleasant.

I think it's more like when you go to Dairy Queen you get ice cream, at Red Lobster it's seafood, and so on. I do not think definition and differentiation in this regard can be considered “intimidating or unpleasant”. Likewise, if someone feels they need to be coddled and have their “feelings respected” there are many such barns today.

My point is that some sports, like rock climbing, sky diving, polo, auto racing and eventing have mortality rates. In these environments, which people chose voluntarily, there is often little or no forgiveness, no second chances. It can be compared to how pilots are trained. They say when you hear a cockpit voice recorder of a crashed plane the pilots are “calmly” going through checklists. There is no room for anything but doing then. It isn’t so much “my way or the highway” as it is “the way or the hospital… maybe funeral”. Coddling and respect for feelings has no place here.

If I have a fearful student who tightens up, we use drills and exercises to loosen them up and retain calm relaxed muscle memory. Then when the sh*t hits the fan, their fears are simply not present. They act correctly.

I think if you stay out of the same zip code as risk and you succeed, the kind of “support” mentioned here by some might suffice. Bottom line, it is a question of if you ride for sport or as a hobby, in my view. Still, I teach every student as if they are headed for the Olympics. Most find this approach very respectful.

[horseguy]

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

... if someone is *afraid* then finding the reason WHY they are afraid is the answer.

You know, I have been doing this a long time. People have fears. Some fears have terrible origins. It is enough to know that they are fearful (I can see it) and work through it on a physical level, in my view.