[QHlover]

Hey, Anyone want to talk about Natural Horsemanship methods? You can AIM me at SunnyNBlaze. Or email me at SunnyNBlaze@aol.com

[jrmorgan]

I think the so called natural horsemanship movement is an overcommerialized way of making unbelievable amounts of money by trying to market to novice horse owners a "new" way of training that GOOD trainers have used for several centuries.

Overall the natural horsemanship movement,has postive and intelligent principles at heart, but it has no taken so far by some less than experienced owners (who think they know EVERYTHING once they read a little Parelli) that its caused more spoilt and rotten (and dangerous horses) than most of the so called "abusive" methods that it condemns.

I have met so many of these people who want to tell me how to train my horses and tell me how mean I am to them, when they themselves have semi-crazy horses with no real respect for humans because their riders have been brainwashed into thinking you should NEVER hit you horse, never use a harsher bit on your horse, never use a gadget on your horse, etc.

I've been riding since I was a baby and trained several of my own riding horses using basic *common sense* principles many of which are indeed present in natural horsemanship. I don't abuse my horses, but I don't fall for all this "new" "natural stuff" either.

If my horse bites, me I'm gonna smack the heck out of it. Right across the nose. If my horse charges at me in the round pen, I'm gonna lay a whip across his legs for a good solid 2 minutes and he won't do it very many times again. If I have a horse that tries to pull me around on a lead rope, I WILL put a chain under his chin and teach him some respect. If I have a horse that KNOWS how to trailer load (ie not a baby thats never been taught) and that horse refuses to get in the trailer cause he just by gods doesn't feel like it, I will indeed smack him a good one on his rear and I promise they always decide,hey she's serious, I better stop being a fool.

Really, so very much of it is WAY too commercialized and that's what bothers me most. These people write a few books and then try to sell you a normal halter with their name on it for 60 bucks...geez, thats crazy.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone. I know that everyone has a right to their opinion, but me personally, I'll never put a dollar in any of these guys hands.

[QHlover]

I understand where you're coming from. A lot of people (Parelli more than others) are taking advantage of people saying that he can "ask" a horse to do something and he will do it. I know very **** well that at home it's not so polite sometimes. I know that you can't beg a horse into doing anything. But there has to be that happy median. Between Beating the holy **** out of a horse and begging a 1200 pound animal to do something.

I prefer above all NH trainers, Clinton Anderson. He doesn't hide anything. He's honest and open. I respect that. He will do what he has to do to get the job done.

If you want to IM me you can at SunnyNBlaze.

Thanks for your imput.

[QHGirl]

I agree there has to be a happy medium too but there are cases to be drastic and cases not to.

jrmorgan I agree with you.... I demand respect from my horse and by golly my horse is well behaved. Sometimes they get scared and can act up, but it is a quick realization that they better straighten up or they will get the consequences of acting up.

I have tired some "techniques" they offer, I take my own "training" methods maybe using theirs but make it to my OWN method of trying all possible methods not just sticking with one.

[Grey Wolf]

My first response to the Parelli's approach was, "man, that stuff is expensive!". And, it really is! eek!

However, as relatively new horse owners taking over training responsibilites after several years with a trainer who too frequently resorted to "old school-inflict-pain-til-they-obey" techniques, we've done some homework. Our conclusion - and that of some experts we respect - is that, while Parelli's tools are pricey, and his clinics are showy, the techniques work, and the average horse owner can do them with success commensurate with their time investment (like most things in life, success requires commitment).

I guess I don't begrudge someone making some $$$ for building a better mouse trap.

My wife and I don't own horses because we need them to plow the fields, or for transportation, or even to gain fame and fortune as breeders of famous show horses. We do it because we think our lives are better with them than without them, and that we can make their lives better than they would be without us. The second part of that would be pretty tough if we hurt them, wouldn't it?

I've heard it mentioned more than once that people know people who do Parelli or John Lyons or some other Natural horsemanship advocate, and talk about how unruly their horses are. Well, it's possible that they aren't doing it right or with the proper commitment - and it may be that their horses are better than they were!

We like and are going to start the Parelli system, having been hostage to a "trainer" that "knew horses", and resorted to violence. We'll train them ourselves, making some mistakes along the way perhaps, but without violence. So far, with our Morgans and our Mustang, we've raised well mannered ladies and gentlemen without much more than some book learning, common sense and a commitment to their welfare. We think Parelli is on to something, and if his system works - and it looks like it does - it'll be well worth it, $45 rope and all! blushing

I just don't see the point of being the more intelligent member of the relationship if you have to resort to violence...

Probably steppin' on some toes. Sorry.

[QHlover]

I agree with Jeff Wolf. Pat PArelli is pricy but you can learn a lot from his programs.

However, if I would have to choose, Clinton Anderson would get my vote. He's firm, but gentle in the same stroke. You learn so much from him. I've been to a couple of Parelli's "clinics" and I was highly dissapointed. I didn't pay good money to watch him show off, I wanted to learn something. A lot of people think it's great what he does (and it is) but he needs to learn how to teach more instead of just saying "buy my stuff, buy my stuff." Cause that's all I hear when he speaks. He doesn't try to teach you anything, he just wants to sell you his products. Which he's not the only one with a rope halter, stick, and things like that.

[jrmorgan]

Jeff Wolf:
I just don't see the point of being the more intelligent member of the relationship if you have to resort to violence...

Probably steppin' on some toes. Sorry.

Sometimes violence is necessary. If my mother had not whooped my ever loving butt as a child, I would not now be a productive member of the law enforcement community, I would not have been validictorian of my senior class, I would not have a record competely free of criminal acts (including traffic tickets) etc. I would have ended up running wild. If its ok to spank a child (and I believe it is, because groundings NEVER worked on me) then its quite ok to hit a horse in the right circumstances.

Maybe it's because I sometimes have to depend on violence in my line of work that I have these opinions. I am paid to resort to violence with dangerous people. If its ok with people, its ok to resort to violence with a dangerous horse in my opinion

[QHGirl]

See this eek! That is me after reading the post... but that is a good SHOCK.... and I commend you for speaking out with those topics....

I agree to some extent, I really don't care if people think "bad" of me, but sometimes it has to be done. I am the way I am, not abuse, just a firm hand.... needs to be corrected, you correct it. Sometimes grounding works for kids and sometimes not... SAME with horses. I don't have kids but lots of neices and nephews... BUT STILL it is almost Identical with horses.

Some horses respond by grounding (natural techniques) and some require spankins (more physical technique)... neither way is "wrong" UNLESS used in the INCORRECT manor. That is the KEY to all of it, if it is used in the incorrect manor it is NOT good, but used correctly it can be a key benifit to discipline in anything.

My 2 cents worth also.

[Grey Wolf]

JR,

I guess my point in your case would be that your job is mandatory (to make a living) and requires violence.

However, your relationship with horses is voluntary, and doesn't. You CAN use violence with horses, but don't HAVE to. You don't HAVE to have any relationship with horses at all. That's the difference.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that since you can be violent with people it's ok to be violent with horses, violent or otherwise. Because they are "lesser beings"?

You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

But I certainly don't share it... frown

[Blistering Winds]

QH GIRL>...I enjoyed your last post!!!!!! I totally agree with you!!

Training a horse is like training your kids...if they don't understand what "consequencse" are, why bother. My kids bite me, they get smacked..my horse bites me..he gets smacked. Now, my kids think they are going to bite me, I give them the eye..they stop...same with my horse. Kids and horses have similar minds...Beat the **** out of them, they'll retaliate eventually....spoil them rotten, they are little horrers....find the balance between the two, you have respect going both ways!!

My kids, yes, I'm bragging, are the best 2 and 3 yr olds you'll ever see in todays' "no spanking" world. BOTH say please and thankyou, when I tell them to get back here, they do (in the store), they don't scream and throw hissy fits like a lot of kids when they don't get their way, but they do on some occasions...just not as bad as I've seen. I have NO problems taking my kids to anything because they know, if they don't listen..momma WILL spank them if nothing else is working...(time out, evil eye..etc)

Same with my horse. I learned today how well behaved he actually is. I put him in a catch pen while I cleaned out his stall. He decided to roll, getting his feet stuck in the fence....he just laid there. He looked up , I told him to stay, he laid his head back down and let us do stuff to him (move his feet), he kinda freaked out when we started pulling on him to pull him away from the fence, but overall, he was awesome. No panic!! He got up, then kicked around cause he was ticked off!! But he listened to me when I said stay!! Wish he would do that when I ground-tie him. He just follows me around..hasn't gotten the ground-tie down,...but has "stay" down if he's laying down!

Anyways...back to the topic...I like many of the new techniques....John Lyons, Clint Anderson, Pat Parelli.....Not all work on all the horses...but I use a combination of them all. Find what works with that horse, and go for it. Some, you never have to ever resort to smacking their nose..others just have a wish for pain....don't completely understand them yet.....but some just never get the idea.