[Kar]

I posted a bit ago, about people not taking enough time with thier horses, during training. I should have explained more clearly, where I was coming from.
I will attempt that now.

All of my clients, save 3 are female. I estimate 80% of those clients have been in a abusive relationship at one point in time or another.
What this has to do with owning a horse you ask? For some. Its a confidence builder. A horse offers them the chance to form a bond with something bigger and stronger then them. That will not use thier faults against them.

They get thier horses from various places. Auctions, traders etc. More times then not, these horses have been abused, or ill treated in some way. Most, have not rode sense childhood. Non have had a horse fulltime. Thus they seek a trainer.

Here is where my rant comes in. As was pointed out to me, a person can make great things happen with thier horse in one day. Thats very true. A person, who spends time with thier horse, and knows their horse, can get results.
However, that takes time, and knowledge. If your raised around horses, or have been around them for 20 or 30 yrs. You know how to read them.
Clients like mine, dont. So when they go to a trainer, and he tells them. Ok when he comes towards you, crack the whip, or toss the rope, make him go away from you. They say ok. That becomes a stone in thier thoughts.
So when they are in a situation, where something goes odd. Anything, they instantly think. Lunge em!
A round pen is a tool, one of many. But the thing alot of *new* owners arent told by trainers is, you have to spend time around and with your horse doing other things. stuff that has nothing to do with work.
There was one trainer here, whom I heard tell a gal. A horse is not a pet, he doesnt care about you, he never will. he will only respect you. He instructed her if she wanted him to continue working with her horse, to stop babying him. Dont give him treats. Dont talk to him while your brushing him, he doesnt care. She was not allowed to touch her horse for 30 days. At the end of that. The worst happened.
She was riding in the back arena, and he was doing well. However, something spooked him, and he took off. She lost her seat, and the horse pulled some muscles sliping in a muddy corner. The trainer, said it was because he didnt respect the bit. I watched this first hand, and it made me sick. The trainer, tied a bit to the horses halter, in his mouth and cinched it up tight. He had a sever smile. She was told, to not remove it for 5 days.
She stood there in tears, and he left. I went up, I patted her shoulder, and she asked if she was doing the right thing. I said no, and asked if I could remove the bit from her horses mouth. She agreed. we talked over her horse, and I told her of a woman who is a wonderful Arab trainer, and gave her the number. She called her, and the horse was moved that day.
Now, I told you that because, sometimes, folks dont have the horse sense to know whats right or whats right for Mr. Doe and his horse. I think, all trainers should consider themselves responsible to make it clear that not all things can be fixed with work. Some things, like understanding your horse, evolves, if you will. From the times when your feeding, grooming, or watching them react to others in a turn out paddock.
Alot of people arent always told about things like that. The gal above, hadnt been allowed to touch her horse in 30 days. He didnt knnow who she was. And this was a green broke horse.
A mistake on the trainers part, on many levels. Which, could have resulted in a horrible injury to either one. And a sweet Lady becoming afraid of her horse for a very long time. Or worse, becoming abusive towards him.
Im sorry if I seemed so *haggy* in my post before. I know that everyone here is helpfull, and wanting the best for thier horses. I just get so frustrated when I see things like hitting a horse in the face etc.
I know its not the views of everyone. I guess it just got a nerve today.

Kar

[Blistering Winds]

I hear what you are saying. I see it too. Saw a guy take a horse that I wanted to work with, (because he was male, he got the horse)....end up TYING this horse 4 directions in the HEAT of Summer, and did this all day, just because the horse FLIPS over with people. (the horse was TAUGHT this).

The cure for that horse, NO MAN rides her. Only women.....SHe is GREAT with women...but will flip over as soon as a man touches the saddle.....

[wyldterv]

Kar, you're absolutely correct that people do not use ANY common sense MUCH to frequently when it comes to their animals and how to deal with them in a sucessful, functional, safe and ENJOYABLE manner.

I agree that you need a certain amount of Saavy (and I'm not speaking of Parelli here) in order to get an animal to perform well for you in a short amount of time. It takes knowing how to read that animal and it doesn't matter if thats a dog, horse, cow, sheep, pig or even chicken. If you understand animal body language and what drives are, you will have much more success with different training practices.

There is no such thing as ONE method fits all IMO. You learn to be inventive and tweak methods for different animals and different situations. I use SOME of the same things for Lexi, my problem child that I do for Poncho my wild mustang, but I have to adjust them accordingly. Lexi's large problem is she was bottle raised and allowed to be Alpha her entire life. NOW she has this human who stands up to her when she pins her ears and acts like she's going to charge... This human not only stands UP to her and doesn't just let Lex go veg in the pasture, but this human THEN has the audacity to make Lexi WORK, RIGHT there RIGHT now. I don't take the 3 mins to walk to the round pen to initiate the work, I do it RIGHT NOW if you're on lead, great we do alot of things, transisitions, side passes, backing, RUNNING small tight circles, etc... If you're off lead I STILL do it RIGHT NOW, and you're MOVING and moving in the direction I say until I say otherwise. This is creating a horse that is starting to STOP and turn and actually check in with me instead of turning her rump to me and sticking her head out side the fence line.

Now the Mustang doesn't do anything out of a lack of respect. He has a VERY deep respect for the human as a predator, and always has respectful body language. When he misbehaves it has been 100% out of self preservation instinct. While I still initiate some types of work to allow him to figure out how to remove pressure from the human, it is for different reasons and with different goals then with Lexi, so I'm TWEAKING the same method to fit each horse and situation.

All good horsemanship results ultimately do take hours and hours and hours because if you don't put the time in with your horses and learn to read them and understand WHY they do what they do, you'll never find that smooth plane of comfort that some horse/rider teams have. Nothing in life comes for 'free' and you get what you put into it.

So I can see your point that the average person needs to understand that the trainer who got results in 3 hours in the round pen did so because they have the experience to read the animal to begin with properly and have put in the hundreds of hours it takes to understand how to read that individual horse and how to adapt their methods to get desired results.

[Cayenne_spice]

I work with rescue horses, with out interaction you get know where, who ever that tainer was, he needs to work out a few problems of his own. i may have not been raised around horses and deffenately havent been around them 20 or 30 years but i do know that attention and interaction it a big part in working with a horse. its sad what some trainers do to the horses, training a horse is one thing, done right it is wonderful. breaking a horses spirit is another thing.....i haope that trainer learns from his actions.....

[Kar]

Wyldterv, Hey thanks for making me rethink and repost on my thoughts. As all, Im human darned emotions get the best of me at times.
Anyhow, yes knowing how to read them is one key. And I understand your use of one way with Lexi, and another with Poncho. Battle or Alpha manners as compared to fear based. Are two seperate worlds.
Alot of my clients dont have the Saavy, (good choice of words) to tell the fearfull horse, from a overly assertive one. They hold such trust in trainers, because they are supposed to be the pros. Aften times, by the time someone like alot of us whom has been raised, or been around horses for years, gets to help them. They are so ruled by fear of thier horse, the best place to start is ground zero.
And your very right, I tell eveyone, you do what works for your horse. If it doesnt work for my horse, thats fine. Im not riding thier horse. They are. Thats another thing *new* owners dont consider. They wont get the same results as the trainer, because we are all varied. The trainer may be heavier in saddle then them, or the trainer may have longer legs ect. A hundred little things that can effect a situation. Which isnt a bad thing, it just means they need to keep at it.
As to the trainer I spoke of above. I heard he was ran out of buisness. Rather or not thats true I dont know. I never go out towards his place, and I dont hear his name used by people Im around. So Im assuming he is. He was such a impersonal sort. I mean with my clients, Im friends with them for years afterwords normaly. And they know they can call any time and ask for advice. Man that guy, was so grumpy and rude, you were scared to ask him anything. He was always so negative.
Im sure glad everyone here is positive. Having resources like this place helps alot of people.

Kar

[wyldterv]

Part of the problem is ANYONE can call themselves a horse trainer and become an overnight "pro". It is the same with dog trainers as well and if that 'pro' happens to have won some competitions along the way they flash the wins before the novice's eye and Novice ASSUMES (remember how to spell this word? We make and A*SS out of U and ME when we Assume) that this 'pro' must be good, so they better hire them and follow all of their advice.

What I tell my puppy people, is also great advice for horse people. When dealing with trainers, ask for references of current and PAST clients, what professional oranizations do they belong to, where did they apprentice, check around with their collegues (if they're good collegues will SAY so) and VERIFY the information given to you. THEN after all of that, if this trainer tells you to do something that really doesn't seem right, QUESTION it, YOU are paying THEM so they are you're employee to a degree, you have the right to question. IF the reasoning still doesn't seem kosher, or the methods used truly seem inhumane, QUIT that trainer and do more homework and find someone who does things in a manner you want them done.

Trainers are no more gods then Doctors and while we do rely on them to assist us with things because they should be more knowledgeable, we still have a responsibility to ourselves and our horses to be educated enough to spot things that are 'off' and we have every right to tell a trainer "NO, I'm not comfortable with this!".

[AnnaBelle02]

I think if you truely are a horse person you are able to follow your instincts and interpret a horse and in turn the two of you can work together. No two horses (like people) are ever the same, therefore no one training method will work for every single horse. I worked with off the track standardbreds, as well as my own (and I don't mean to sound snitty) but the reason why I could train them better than any of the others that attempted to is that I gave them a chance to "be themselves". I find with standardbreds more than any other breed, they become easily offended - I know this sounds strange but if you ever have the opportunity to work with a STB you will know what I'm talking about.
With any horse I start them all the same way then I take a step back and just watch - give them the opportunity to speak their minds, some horses don't mind the round pen, some hate it - some horses will ride comfortably in the ring others learn better in the field.

I'm an animal lover, I respect animals just as I respect people - they are all individuals just like us and we need to nurture their individuality.
I know all this sounds so strange, but by using this approach I have yet to come into a dire situation with a horse - I've fallen but I've never had a full blown temper tantrum on my hands.

I'm glad to know that there are other people out there who aren't affraid to step up to the plate and admit that horse training (in the traditional sense - hog tie, break etc...) is not the only way to do things and they can prove it!

Great thread Kar!

[Kar]

Heys its only a good thread because of everyone here

Wyldterv... And theres alot of politics.. Or as one person told me Poli tricks..lol
Yeah the Dog world is the same. I have a mutt personaly, but my neighbor has a full breed, and man. She was explaining if this is to dark or this is to white etc. Then they cant show or be bred. Just like horses.
Very good point on the trainer is a employee.. Alot of folks dont consider that. Its like they view it as the trainer is in charge of them, because they are the (pro)
*nods head and chuckles* Yep, Ive seen the result of "I won a show and Im now a pro" The only time I will really say something is if they are 14yrs old. And thier mother is still driving them around. And yes, there are some here who call themselves Trainers whom are 14 or so years. I can respect thier advice, but most are snotty, bratty and rude to those they view as under them. (Heaven forbid your my age, they act like your a dinosaur, and so old you dont know what a riding crop is for. They think I still ride in a wooden saddle).
Anyhow, I always tell folks. Look, my training is for people with an abused animal. Or for someone who just wants a good riding horse. If they want training for cutting, or barrels. I give them a number to someone I respect. I would never claim to be able to do that sort of training. I dont want to. Im afraid of *poli-tricks*.. lol
Nope, all my stuff is basics. People can start with me, and go to the cutter pro for finishing.

PaintLover, I have seen your point of view work lots of times. In my work I see the messed up mental state of a horse. So watching them, usually gives me better answers, and views into whats up in thier head.
I fully sympathize (sp) with what your saying. I had a client with an arab, man long story but once she watched him, (and she knew horses most of her life.) But when she really watched his reactions, and movements, she broke into tears. He was such a lonely guy.
I'll post his story here one day. It will be part of my book, and I'd like you to all read it and tell me what you think.

But yeah, you know everyone is thier own person. And like I always say. If I have to get on a pink tu tu and tie cans around my knees to get a horse to respond in a good way.. Hey I'd do it.. lol Just make sure my kids dont know where the camera is.

Kar

[PoochtheMighty]

Nice posts! I enjoyed reading 'em, 'cuz I can relate.

When I first got my horse, he was 'green' ( I'd just turned 14, I was angry at the world, he was angry at the world, we were the perfect pair) and I have to say I was even greener... it was ridiculous; every ride was a battle; I knew he was angry but I didn't know WHY... I blamed it on the man who had been real rough with him before... I wanted a show horse and I wanted one now. So every day it was work: "Fight until we're tired, then we'll call it a day, Apache."

I donno... I'd like to say it came to me in a blinding flash of light but it was just one day, I was standing around in a vacant field letting Apache graze (because I DID love him, I was just angry with him all the time) and I realized that standing together in a field, no arenas, no tack, no bit- that was the closest I'd ever felt to him. Just standing there thinking. And from then on I made it a point to figure out how to work together instead of trying to out-think him or out-muscle him (because he's got me beat in both those aspects). I decided to put my saddle and bridle away for a few months and as soon as I did, the feedback flooded in... after a few months of nothing but groundwork and join-up and hand grazing and grooming sessions, I got on him bareback with a halter (suicidal in the early days)- he didn't once buck, which was a favorite of his, he didn't bolt, he didn't come against my hands or seat. We had a good ride. And it's pretty much been like that from then on... I'm 17 now and he's 11, working in dressage.

It's all in the approach of things, I guess. If you treat a horse like an object that YOU are TRAINING, and you don't let HIM train YOU, you'll get nowhere. The wonderful thing about horses can be the most frustrating- they're horses, and they've got BRAINS. I think the problem with most "bad trainers" is they think that horses are stupid, cowardly animals...they don't realize that they're intelligent animals who've been crafted into a prey animal and react VERY well to stimuli. For instance...you beat the **** outta them....they fear you...

Blah, I've turned it into my own little rant.

Anywho...