[Mutrok]

The post on gelding or not got me thinking about the breedability of mares and the value placed on them as producers. I see such a trend to place all the "glory, credit, stock" on the stallion and forgetting or minimizing the contributions of the mare in breeding.

A wonderful trainer who has traveled all around the world looking at the best of the best once told me a story about going to a breeding facility to look at some horses for a stateside client of hers and stables were willing to show her their 2nd and 3rd string stallions and young mares but when she inquired about a broken down, swaybacked broodmare out in a pasture she was told "don't even look at her, she will never be for sale". Now why was that?? Because they had the philosophy that "mommy gives most". Their broken down broodmares are the bones of their breeding program and they are not willing to part with them under any circumstances.

When I am looking at foals that are offered for sale rarely is much attention given to the dam. Most of the discussions is about the sire and grand sires. That is not to say that people are not intersted in the mares that these foals are out of but much more credit, influence, importance is placed on the sire.

Another scary trend is stallion owners not being concerned at all about the quality of the mare they are breeding. It is more about their bottom line than the quality of the foal being produced. Which in the end will hurt their bottom line IMHO. Recently I inquired about breeding to a particular stallion (who I very much admire) and the owners were ready to ign a contract and send me semen without even asking me one question about my mare. I decided not to breed to him because the lack of concern for the mares they were breeding. I fear that it will eventually reflect in the offspring being less successful.

Now before you jump all over me I am not saying that all breeders are like this but there are far too many that are. So I guess my question (retorical or not) is what sort of stock do you place in your broodmares. How important is the mare? Why are we not placing as much or more value on our broodmares than we are on our stallions?

[Haas Horse Farm]

I figure the offspring is 70% the mare... If the mare does not have a good temperment and does not like humans I absolutely will not use her as a broodmare. The colt will learn socialization skills based on what it observes from the mare. Hence I have a mare that grumbles when she sees food regardless if her mouth is full or not... Guess who else grumbles... her offspring!

[Acme Acres]

A foal is 50/50 sire/dam genetically. I have seen mares that are sweet as pie and their foals turn out nasty. We've got a mare at home that can not stand people, has to live in a halter when she's got a foal on her side and that filly is the most people oriented baby going.

The big reason stallions are given so much credit is that they can produce more than one foal a year. Their progeny ends up all aroudn the country in many cases and becomes more wide known. The key to checking or not checking the mares bred to a stallion is knowing what your horse is and is not capable of producing. Breeding a stallion who has a high coefficiency will guarantee that they're more likely to replicate themselves... be it in body or mind.

Our buckskin mare is nothing to look at, has no hip, toes in and grows toe like there's no tomorrow. Every last one of her foals has been at least nice, if not spectacular. Unfortunately, not everyone is truthful in their dispositions, be it stallion or mare owners.

[JBandRio]

I don't think it's QUITE accurate to state that it's a 50/50 genetic contribution either way. There are the X-factors, such as the large heart, that trace directly to the mare (duh). I'm sure there are others, and likely some that trace to the Y. So in this case theory doesn't play out exactly.

Good broodmares are priceless. They are the ones who consistently produce with various types of stallions, and they form the basis of many breeding farms' program, since the foal are either sold as part of the business or are used for competition as part of the business.

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

I figure the offspring is 70% the mare... If the mare does not have a good temperment and does not like humans I absolutely will not use her as a broodmare. The colt will learn socialization skills based on what it observes from the mare. Hence I have a mare that grumbles when she sees food regardless if her mouth is full or not... Guess who else grumbles... her offspring!

Yep, LOL. She's still grumbling. You know we just don't feed her enough, ever

[Acme Acres]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

I don't think it's QUITE accurate to state that it's a 50/50 genetic contribution either way. There are the X-factors, such as the large heart, that trace directly to the mare (duh). I'm sure there are others, and likely some that trace to the Y. So in this case theory doesn't play out exactly.

Well of course there's certain things, but you can not say that a mare (or even a stallion for that matter) is x% responsible for the foal. I've heard everything from 40% to 85% being the mare and you know darn well that's just not true. Like people that advertise a mare to be a 100% filly producer.... and they figure she's responsible for it how?

The truth of the matter is, it is as equally important to have both a good stallion and good mare.

[minilove]

I don't know a lot about genetics or breeding, but wouldn't the genes have to be 50/50 from sire and dam? If an animal has 64 chromosomes 32 of them will be from the mother and the next 32 from the father. A parent always gives half, at least that is what I learned in my highschool Bio class So why would the mare or the stallion give more?

I could see a certain horse producing certrain traits, but that isn't do to their gender, just dominent traits over repressive traits, correct?

And slightly off-topic, but can you breed for personality/temperment? We have no idea what makes up personality in humans, is it more enviroemt or genetic? If genetic what genes, what combiniations. It is believed that it can take 1000 of genes to make one trail (did a report on personality my Psychology class this year lol).

Okay just my little highschool two-cents. I dont really think one parent can contribute more. Broodmares should be choosen carefully, just like the stud.

[Acme Acres]

Yes, you can breed for disposition. Anything is able to be bred for, but many things take much longer than others.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Acme Acres

Well of course there's certain things, but you can not say that a mare (or even a stallion for that matter) is x% responsible for the foal. I've heard everything from 40% to 85% being the mare and you know darn well that's just not true.

You're right, there are no guarantees with any individual mating who contributed more or less, if either. I was just pointing out what while theoretically it's a 50/50 shot, reality isn't quite that way. A stallion could have lots of recessive traits that pair with the mare's dominant ones, and the foal is more mare than stallion. I think that is likely what happens when you find a stallion or mare who is very prepotent for a particular trait, or who stamps their offspring (this applies mostly to stallions since it becomes a game of numbers, and most mares don't produce enough to make that connection, but some make it clear early on that their foals are THEIR foals, if that makes sense). There are some stallions whose offspring are so incredibly Daddy's, so while mom and dad contributed equal amounts of DNA, dad just happens to have many dominant traits that trump mom's recessive ones.

Like people that advertise a mare to be a 100% filly producer.... and they figure she's responsible for it how?

Actually, in most cases it IS the mare that did that Especially when the results are (nearly) all fillies by different stallions. Some mares have a uterine environment that is unfavorable to the survival of significant numbers of Y sperm. I cannot remember if that is a basic or acidic environment. The old wive's tale of douching with acv to increase the odds of (filly/colt can't remember) isn't so far off base, as the acidity serves to increase the demise of one or the other X or Y.

The truth of the matter is, it is as equally important to have both a good stallion and good mare.

Amen! That increases the chances of the favorable, hopefully dominant traits being passed on from both of them.

[Acme Acres]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Actually, in most cases it IS the mare that did that Some mares have a uterine environment that is unfavorable to the survival of significant numbers of Y sperm. I cannot remember if that is a basic or acidic environment. The old wive's tale of douching with acv to increase the odds of (filly/colt can't remember) isn't so far off base, as the acidity serves to increase the demise of one or the other X or Y.

The truth of the matter is, it is as equally important to have both a good stallion and good mare.

I know someone who swears that's true (and it would be for producing fillies) but it has been disproved by science. Some stallions are just much more predisposed to produce fillies.

Originally Posted by JBandRio

You're right, there are no guarantees with any individual mating who contributed more or less, if either. I was just pointing out what while theoretically it's a 50/50 shot, reality isn't quite that way.

Just like lethals... too many people assume it's a true 25% chance of getting one and it isn't.