[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

LOL so what do solids that test for LWO look like... my point is that all those ideas are neat BUT there is a horse somewhere that will prove it not to be.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's a known fact that a LWO can be extremely obvious, totally solid, and lots inbetween. That doesn't mean there are aren't boundaries by which the pattern is governed. Same with Splash. Same with Sabino. Same with Tobiano.

I bet that the owner is saying the horse has the sabino pattern. Knowing SB1 means nothing to me... I cannot see what proof that does to any breeder. What is the point in testing for it? Sorry that is one that really has never made much sense to me. I do know that the lines on the dam are back to the horse with the "nylon" gene... which is known for being sabino.

Testing for patterns is no different from testing for colors - knowing, education. Now that we KNOW there is a testable SB1 pattern, and are still somewhat figuring out the limits of its expression, it's very interesting for pattern lovers to want to know if a particular horse is SB1-tested or just assumed to be Sabino-in-general. It's no different from you wanting to know if a horse IS champagne, or just looks like one.

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

Yes I have photos but I see no point in hijac ing this thread about it. I did not say that the horses did not have other patterns... I know for a fact that one horse is also Tobiano. I am not sure what other genes the other horses might have besides frame since there are several... some are part QH...

My point is simply that it has been proven that the only way to know frame is to test for it... it cannot be "seen"... that is why I am questioning why anyone wants to put a "look" to something that cannot be seen.

Why does anyone want to look to Pearl when it isn't necessarily seen in its heterozygous form?

My point about asking about the picture was that if there were multiple high white legs, then Tobi might be present and that alone can easily, and usually does, cause white to cross the center line behind the head. Sabino can do the same, and if expressed that high up, would also nearly guarantee high white on the legs somewhere.

[HorseGurly143]

So would these be max tobiano?

[RiddleMeThis]

Not really both of those are tobiano plus splash sabino and possibly frame IMO

[Haas Horse Farm]

Exactly... so the only way that you would know if either of those was frame would be to test. That is my whole point. Frame is a gene that can only be included or excluded for 100 percent by testing. The cost of the test is cheap compared to a dead foal.

My concern is that you go to saying all these things about frame patterns and someone figures they do not have to test because it does not fit the pattern and then they learn the hard way and have a dead foal. Sorry I would not want to have that on my conscience... that someone read my post and did not think the horse did not need to be tested because it did not meet the color norms so no test and next thing is a dead foal.\

Notice the ermine spot on the bottom one. Very cute.

[Haas Horse Farm]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Testing for patterns is no different from testing for colors - knowing, education. Now that we KNOW there is a testable SB1 pattern, and are still somewhat figuring out the limits of its expression, it's very interesting for pattern lovers to want to know if a particular horse is SB1-tested or just assumed to be Sabino-in-general. It's no different from you wanting to know if a horse IS champagne, or just looks like one.

Sorry I do not agree since a horse can still be sabino but test not to be SB1... so I would not pay for the test. So what is the value of the test if you pay for it and she is sabino but not SB1?

Champagne is always that. I do not need a test to know that a horse is or is not ... you can tell by the color and the freckling. I did include my horses in test... sure why not but I would not test just to know something I already know. I will most likely test my new filly for both champagne and cream as they do that when they test cream on a champagne. To date anyway any horse that is tested for champagne is also tested for cream.... If there was not a question on if she had the cream gene I would not have her tested.

[RiddleMeThis]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

Sorry I do not agree since a horse can still be sabino but test not to be SB1... so I would not pay for the test. So what is the value of the test if you pay for it and she is sabino but not SB1?

Becuase a homozygous sb1 horse will be a max white. Its like breeding for a cremello or any other double anything. Homozygous sb1 = max white.

[myboyben]

Originally Posted by taliacristianna

Check out the markings on this girl:







She does have one blue eye so it's not just tobi at play here. Still, really unusual looking!

very off topic, but that is the cutest thing i have ever seen

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

Sorry I do not agree since a horse can still be sabino but test not to be SB1... so I would not pay for the test. So what is the value of the test if you pay for it and she is sabino but not SB1?

The value is in knowing, IF that is something that interests you. People who are interested in "color" like to know those things. Just because *you* would not pay for a test because it doesn't interest you doesn't mean that others, like me and acc and rmt, wouldn't. We might not care about testing for champagne, but it interests you a great deal. What's the big deal? The value is that there is another chalk mark in the "looks classically Sabino, but is not SB1" category. What if a "classically marked Sabino" but far from a max white, turned out to be SB1/SB1? That would VERY much interest the geneticists who are studying Sabino.

Champagne is always that. I do not need a test to know that a horse is or is not ... you can tell by the color and the freckling. I did include my horses in test... sure why not but I would not test just to know something I already know. I will most likely test my new filly for both champagne and cream as they do that when they test cream on a champagne. To date anyway any horse that is tested for champagne is also tested for cream.... If there was not a question on if she had the cream gene I would not have her tested.

Ok, valid point about champagne. But what if you're looking at a horse who could be palomino or buckskin, but is also a pinto and all the tell-tale points are white, so there is no help of any black clueing you in? A color breeder would be very interested in knowing, since the outcome may have bearing on suitable breeding stock if that color breeder is looking to produce a certain color offspring. What about a smokey black? Some of them look like black, period, as they don't all have the greenish/grayish/blueish eyes, and not all the adults have gold hair in the ears. What about Pearl?

I don't get why you are so "but why??" about someone interested in testing for Sabino?

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis

Becuase a homozygous sb1 horse will be a max white. Its like breeding for a cremello or any other double anything. Homozygous sb1 = max white.

Well, at least 95% of the time That's what has been shown in the studies so far, last I heard.

[RiddleMeThis]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Well, at least 95% of the time That's what has been shown in the studies so far, last I heard.

Just went back and looked at the summary for the paper and it seems that all horses they tested that were homozygous for the pattern where max whites. Now I do remember reading something about 95 just cant seem to find where.