[pippy]

I had a really funny episode on the lunge last night. I found it quite entertaining, but i assume if it was anyone else lunging my horse they would have been petrified.

Anyway, I had about 30mins of light left so i threw ona bridle and lunge line for a quick 10min lunge just to keep my horse from becoming a paddock pony as its so wet and miserable at the moment. So we started with out walk both directions, trot both directions and it came time to canter. wow weee we turned into a rodeo bucking bronc is was so funny he really enjoyed letting out steam and i enjoyed seeing it, and it was the whip that set it off because he wouldn't canter so i cracked it on the ground. Happened on both reins.

Now here is where i want some opinions from you guys. I've been reading up and watching Andrew McLean's training theory and he is GOOD.
http://www.aebc.com.au/AndrewMcLean
In his training method he says that by punishment we reward our horse when it comes to the use of the whip. So this is how i see turbo's weehee last night.
Troting,canter commend ignored, whip, Canter, buck, I hide whip to get him to stop being a knob, buck, all fours up, andother buck and finally canter. So what just happened he bucks and i removed the whip, rewarding him for bucking.... so when we change direction exactly the same thing happened again rewarding the "naughty" behaviour. So i assume to stop this i need to either, find another method to get him to canter (which is easy if he isn't being a prat) or keep the whip there and drive him fowards with it until he stops bucking etc and them remove it.

And i really feel i should stop this behaviour, i have no worries about dealing with it because he doesn't bolt away from the circle while landing (we were in a wide open paddock) and i think its a bit of a laugh (althoug i treat it seriously) and i'd much rather he did it out there than when i'm on his back (he used to when i first got him) but what happens when i sell him on in a year or two - he won't appeal to a larger group of buyers because i won't sell him to someone who will be scared/timid around him and i'd have to tell them what he's like and could be quite off putting because other than that he is an excellent horse that has come a long way and would be nearer the upper end of the eventing market in NZ.

And no i wont stop lunging him or put side reins on him while lunging him, i used to use the pessoa contraption and that reduced it but i won't use it anymore as i feel it jabs the horse in the mouth with every stride, and especially when he does a pig root.

[ncs]

pig root? what the heck is that?

[pippy]

A mini buck, its what we call them here, no a actual buck with legs out the back but a threat to buck where you feel there bums raise up a bit.

[pippy]

i.e full buck
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com.../7/4/2/4/4.jpg

pig root - its also where they just kick out.
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...5/DSCF5647.JPG

[WashingtonBay]

I don't allow bucking at all on the lunge line. I'd correct it by bringing him down HARD with a line correction or series of line corrections and an "ACK!". If you need more oooph to your line correction, I'd use a stud chain for the interim so you can give a hard correction for this kind of behavior (I'd rather use a stud chain lightly than try to throw my body weight into it against a horse.)

"ACK!"



I've always had horses with more "go" than "woah", and letting them keep going and 'buck it out' to them would be it's own reward. And the more they buck the better they get at it. For me, bucking = not allowed once the halter goes on.

And then, find just the right amount of push to get him to canter... nicely. Canter? "Good!" Buck, then "ACK! start over".

My two cents.

[buck1173]

Originally Posted by pippy

In his training method he says that by punishment we reward our horse when it comes to the use of the whip.

pippy, I don't quite follow, can you pls explain that theory a bit more clearly? I'm very curious

[jhalton]

Originally Posted by WashingtonBay

I don't allow bucking at all on the lunge line. I'd correct it by bringing him down HARD with a line correction or series of line corrections and an "ACK!". If you need more oooph to your line correction, I'd use a stud chain for the interim so you can give a hard correction for this kind of behavior (I'd rather use a stud chain lightly than try to throw my body weight into it against a horse.)

"ACK!"



I've always had horses with more "go" than "woah", and letting them keep going and 'buck it out' to them would be it's own reward. And the more they buck the better they get at it. For me, bucking = not allowed once the halter goes on.

And then, find just the right amount of push to get him to canter... nicely. Canter? "Good!" Buck, then "ACK! start over".

My two cents.

This is exactly what I am trying with my mare Evie, who was allowed to get away with blue murder on the lunge. If asked for a canter - buck buck buck. I wont allow this. I growl ARRRG then ask her to walk and we start again. I havent had that many chances to work with it (been super busy lately) but will be able from this weekend. I will add in the stop but I think she is kinda thinkin to herself that "oh, she doesnt want me to buck?" and I think she will get out of it fairly quickly - when I find the time!!

I look forward to seeing ideas for a "nice canter"

[pippy]

Originally Posted by buck1173

pippy, I don't quite follow, can you pls explain that theory a bit more clearly? I'm very curious

Sorry that does sound confusing. I'll try explain a bit better, this may not be 100% solid in explaination but it will show what i mean hopefully.

The whip is our punishment to the horse, which we give say whilst the buck occurs as a solid whack this is the "pressure/aid" so as we give this "aid" during the movement the horse associates the whack with the buck. We then stop the whip as he stops the buck, the pressure has gone so he assume that he has completed the aid we asked for. And is hence rewarded for the buck as he is no longer feeling a "aid".
To fully comprehend where this is going as proven by his study a horse learns by association e.g teaching whoa. the horse already know how to halt from pressure, to attain the correct response the whoa must be given before and overlaping the halt, but not preceeding the end of the halt and its physical aids. This is the way the horse will learn the whoa the fastest, continuing the whoa after the aid is useless as they don't associate it with anything, but before and during they due. If you say whoa only during the application of the physical aids they still learn it but at a reduced rate.
So, given that and taking it back to the bucking, we are applying a aid during a horses own manoeuvre and by association the horse learns the whip means buck and the release of the whip is the reward.
Another eg is my lunging, rewarding my horse by the removal of the whip as he reacted to strongly to it.

Does that makes sense in a round about way. I have only just started following the McLean research in depth and gaining a proper understanding in it. But he did his PhD on the training of horses and how they learn best so i'm starting to introduced his methods into my training as they seem sound and a couple of our top dressage horses in NZ are trained by that method and they move correctly with lightness. You amy want to read some of his articles that are in the website i posted in OP

[pippy]

The other thing i'm going to add, is once he start his bucking episode it goes for a couple of rounds and for the next say 2 rotations of canter he will still be sensitive to the whip, BUT if he goes into the canter without being a prat he isn't a sensitive to whip.

I don't currently stop him as A) its dangerous to get close enough to him to get his attention
B) doesn't take much and he returns to "normal"
C) i'm not going to pull on the lead in the middle of his fit, my 70kg to his 600kgs (he is a big boy) isn't enough and he will just drag me where ever he chooses, i found that out the hard way and found if i leave him be he won't go rocketing off.
D) flicking the line at him creates a bigger fit, unless he isn't in a fit as thats how i keep him out on the circle.

Its like he has a split personallity demon boy one minute and then back down to my lovely boy, its like his adrenalin goes up momentarily then he goes oh thats not worth it slows down again.

[jhalton]

Originally Posted by ncs

pig root? what the heck is that?

That is funny - dont you use that term in america? (havent even checked if you are from there lol) It is so funny when we have a common use word and you guys go "what?!" - like a horse float (horse trailer) etc.

Anywho, back to the subject