[Sarah06]

Hi! I have a 4yr old, 16.1hh, Canadian x clydesdale named Tea Biscuit. He has come a really long way since I bought him as a 2yr old. He was out to pasture for 2 years with no imprinting or ground work, had never seen a vet or farrier! And he was emaciated. His previous owners way of taming him was dumping a bag of grain in the field once a month for him and his pasture mates and let them go to it! Also he was not weaned from his mother until 2 years old. So needless to say he was quite a handful to work with and was not the smallest baby either at 16.1hh he would drag me, step on me, strike with front and back legs, rear, bite and buck to get his own way. Since then I have really worked with him and he has turned out to be the sweetest, calmest, most willing to please baby! So the problems I am now having are lunging him, I have been trying for almost 2 years with him and he will turn and stand facing me with a puzzled look on his face. I have tried putting him in a round pen and no amount of pressure will send this horse around on a lunge line or in a round pen!! He will turn and challenge me or kick/strike at me. . . If I do manage to get him moving it will only be one or two circles maximum and he will stop and turn towards me. Also my vet told me I could begin riding him at 2 since then he has done quite well. He can w/t/c, back, half pass, side pass, leg yield and we do a small amount of jumping.On his canter transition if I can GET him to canter (he knows the aids but refuses to canter) without fail he bucks. How can I prevent him from doing this? He is sound and is in no pain, both of his saddles fit perfectly. I do lots of warming up with TONS of transitins, circles, exercises to supple and balance him and I am at a loss as where to go from here! Any suggestions?! I have a few pictures of him in my images, sorry I am new to this and can't figure out how to post them in my thread!

[Fancy That]

Your horse is turning up the heat, and you need to be HOTTER and LOUDER.

Go back to Round Pen Training/Basics. If you request him to move forward into a canter, and he simply doesn't (or does and then challenges you) ...you MUST MAKE HIM GO.

Are you very very bold and confident when he challenges you? His bucking out into the canter is also a "protest"

Undersaddle, if he's not in front of your leg, you have nothing to work with. To remind him about what forward means, do what Jane Savoie instructs in her "Demystifying the Half Halt" two-part series.

You ask for forward and do NOT be concerned if your horse "squirts forward".. simply release your aids and give him some rein. Your request needs to be gradually increasing in "tone" if he is ignoring you.

Everytime he "wins" when you request forward, and he does not...you are training him to ignore you and disrespect you.

Bless you for taking on such a challenging horse. I worked with a gelding who's instinct was to strike-out, challenge, face you and almost ATTACK in the roundpen. I had to be THAT MUCH MORE "LOUD" and turn up the heat and pressure on him.

Once we broke through that - he was amazing. But you really have to have nerves of steel and no trace of insecurity when dealing with that type of horse.

Good luck!!

[zorse]

A bunch of things stand out to me: he's young. He's half draft. He's tall(ish).
Two winters ago I had a huge (16.3h+), young (4 yrs), chunky (although she was a DWB she looked like part draft) mare in for training. She was a total sweet heart, wouldn't hurt a fly, but she would BUCK when she picked up canter (after much coaxing and running a hundred miles around the arena) and couldn't keep the canter for more than a few steps before breaking back to a mad trot.
I mention this because it seems similar to your case.
The problem, I found, with her, was that she was utterly unbalanced. Her owner was pretty green and because she was a bigger woman she didn't have very good balance herself, especially in the canter. She rode very heavily off of the inside rein and not at all off the outside. So, this poor mare, who couldn't even hold herself up very well, was being thrown off balance even more by her rider. The result was, as I described, total inability and total unwillingness to canter.
My coach (the mare was being boarded at my dressage coach's barn) had me work a TON on her trot work before even bothering with her canter. I had to get the mare extremely straight so she would learn to balance. When I did start cantering her, I made sure I kept her as straight as she was in trot. I took it really slow and with baby steps. She didn't have the strength, at first, to canter anything more than half a circle. That was fine. It came with time.

[Sarah06]

Originally Posted by Fancy That

Your horse is turning up the heat, and you need to be HOTTER and LOUDER.

Go back to Round Pen Training/Basics. If you request him to move forward into a canter, and he simply doesn't (or does and then challenges you) ...you MUST MAKE HIM GO.

Are you very very bold and confident when he challenges you? His bucking out into the canter is also a "protest"

Undersaddle, if he's not in front of your leg, you have nothing to work with. To remind him about what forward means, do what Jane Savoie instructs in her "Demystifying the Half Halt" two-part series.

You ask for forward and do NOT be concerned if your horse "squirts forward".. simply release your aids and give him some rein. Your request needs to be gradually increasing in "tone" if he is ignoring you.

Everytime he "wins" when you request forward, and he does not...you are training him to ignore you and disrespect you.

Bless you for taking on such a challenging horse. I worked with a gelding who's instinct was to strike-out, challenge, face you and almost ATTACK in the roundpen. I had to be THAT MUCH MORE "LOUD" and turn up the heat and pressure on him.

Once we broke through that - he was amazing. But you really have to have nerves of steel and no trace of insecurity when dealing with that type of horse.

Good luck!!

Thank you! I think you have hit the nail on the head! No I am absolutely not bold and confident with him when he challenges me! I think its me who tends to back off when he is protesting. I think I am scared I will push him too hard and ruin him as he is so young. I think I take too much into account his past and feel sorry for him. I do understand it is what he learns not that is crucial to the horse he is going to develop into. My question being is how much harder do I push him? What would be the steps I take as for reprimanding bad/challenging behavior? If I use a whip on him he will be just shy of attacking. . . How do I do this in a way I will not hurt him or myself. I have had a level lll dressage rider work with him and I felt she was extremely harsh with him, he got whipped and spurred every step he took by the end of a 45 minute session he was sweating profusely and quivering with any movement the rider made on him. After that I think is when I really backed off and began feeling sorry for him. How hard is too hard?

[Fancy That]

Okay, well that explains everything. Kudos to you for trying to help him and figure it out, and admitting that you lack confidence.

It's the number one thing he needs right now.

People will probably flame me, but I would just go back to the Round Pen. Look into any of the trainers that do that (Lyons, Brannaman, Cameron, Cox, Campbell, Reis, Anderson,Parelli, etc) and learn there.

You need to stay safe - and since he's comfortable "striking out" and "facing you" to challenge and protest your request for him to move his feet...he's using his fight instinct, rather than flight instinct.

That is inherently WAY MORE DANGEROUS. I'd work with a pro (and not that DQ trainer) to help you. I'd use a stick and string or a very 'scary flag' to keep him moving AWAY and FORWARD.

Get this down pat on the ground first. Once he understands you mean business, he won't keep "testing you" when he feels like he doesn't want to go into a canter or keep it.

As far as undersaddle, once he understands your request and tries to comply.......the balance thing and getting him to have a NICE canter is a whole nother ball of wax.

A nice, balanced canter that he can keep up (steady) will take awhile.

But ANY HORSE can MOVE INTO A CANTER at your request, without protesting. Try to get to that small step first. Worry about the "quality of canter" later.....

Originally Posted by Sarah06

Thank you! I think you have hit the nail on the head! No I am absolutely not bold and confident with him when he challenges me! I think its me who tends to back off when he is protesting. I think I am scared I will push him too hard and ruin him as he is so young. I think I take too much into account his past and feel sorry for him. I do understand it is what he learns not that is crucial to the horse he is going to develop into. My question being is how much harder do I push him? What would be the steps I take as for reprimanding bad/challenging behavior? If I use a whip on him he will be just shy of attacking. . . How do I do this in a way I will not hurt him or myself. I have had a level lll dressage rider work with him and I felt she was extremely harsh with him, he got whipped and spurred every step he took by the end of a 45 minute session he was sweating profusely and quivering with any movement the rider made on him. After that I think is when I really backed off and began feeling sorry for him. How hard is too hard?

[analise]

I definitely echo the suggestion of getting a pro to work with you especially if you aren't sure you can be completely confident with him when he challenges you (and there's nothing wrong with that, I'm not sure I would be.).

I wouldn't necessarily say send him off for a few weeks or anything. I think you need someone who can work with him to get him listening to a human and then they need to work with you to be able to do the same thing since it'll do you no good if he starts listening to the trainer but comes home and still disrespects you.

[Fancy That]

Here's a snippet from an email from a BNT I got today. Food for thought as it aligns w/ what I was saying earlier.
==================================

Move your horse’s feet to establish your leadership role.

Horses challenge their own pecking order daily, and they will do the same to you. It’s nothing personal – it’s just business. Horses are natural followers, but they want a leader they can respect and trust. Every day, your horse will test you to see if you deserve to lead him. Just like the dominant horse in a herd, you have to be worthy of the leadership role in your relationship with your horse. You have to prove to him that you can move his feet forwards, backwards, left and right and are always willing to reward the slightest try.

The number one horse in the herd doesn’t have to be the biggest horse or the strongest horse, he just has to be the bravest and smartest. He has to be the most effective leader. When he tells the other horses to move, they better move or he’s going to back it up with action. He’ll kick, bite, strike or do whatever it takes to get the other horses to move their feet.

The more you can move your horse’s feet, the more control you have. The less you can move your horse’s feet, the less control you have and the more disrespectful he will be. Keep that in mind – the more the horse moves your feet, the pushier and more disrespectful he will become.

[Sarah06]

Thank you for all your advice and help! You have given me a good foundation to start working with! Looks like its back to basics for the next while for me and my boy! I was also looking at a few other posts on working him on a lunge line and I am going to try that too! I will keep you posted on our progress!

[amira_rox]

Alot of horses buck going into canter cos they are in pain. Otherwise its often because they are excited (in the case of horses like mine)
Get his teeth checked, his back checked, saddle, legs, feet, to make sure there is nothing funky going on.
If nothing comes up get tough on him and every time he bucks give him a no, but then just push him forward out of it and sit them out. If you disengage his hindquarters and therefore stop him, your in a way rewarding him by him not having to work hard any more. My horse used to get very excited about cantering and jumping at pony club, and he would buck for the first few steps of canter then settle down, and after a few canter transitions he would be fine.