[kmdstar]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

I understand what you want from her, but you have to put it in terms that are "fair" in her mind. She sounds very intelligent, so have a very clear set of rules and expectations will get you a lot further than intermittent training sessions. Obviously the goal is always for her to behave no matter what, but there has to be a realistic plan that builds towards the ideal and a clear set of corrections for when she does act up.

Can't a stall guard be installed between the stall door and the paddock so she can't get in while it's being cleaned?

My girls can easily bust through a stall guard, not even meaning to sometimes, my guess is if Kinta REALLY wants in...she'll get IN.

[red00jeep]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

It is difficult dealing with horses that have alpha personalities, particularly mares, and food aggression takes careful, consistent management. I am a little confused at why you separated her from her food after she was fed...it seems counter intuitive to me; you are only going to increase her anxiety about food by separating her while she is eating. Obviously you need to be able to feed the horse safely without being trampled, but it makes no sense to take the food away after she's gotten it.

It sounds like you understand how to get her to behave on the ground with a halter and lead. I would follow the same principles with the hay/grain. Once you have the desired response; standing quietly waiting, her reward is her food. She needs to associate polite behavior with being fed. She will never make that connection if you take the food away after she's gotten it; she will just see it as an act of aggression.

I'm not so sure if I agree with this. When I want my horse to come to me, he had better get his butt over there pronto! I don't care if there is a bag full of grain in front of him, I demand he acts pleasant at all times, regardless of circumstances.

If he acted pushy and I did take the food away, he had better see it as an act of aggression, that was how it was intended. I would like to be seen as Alpha horse, "that food is mine when I say it is mine, you had better back off".

To me, it is extremely important that I be able to rub all over my horse, touch him, put my hands in his feeder, etc. while he's eating, because if I was unable to do that, it wouldn't necessarily mean he was free of food aggression.

So, I agree with the OP.

OP- I am extremely surprised your old barn didn’t make you aware of the issue, as your mare could have been a huge liability to the staff. I’m pleased to see you are motivated and addressing the issue, sounds like you have some real horse sense .

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by red00jeep

I'm not so sure if I agree with this. When I want my horse to come to me, he had better get his butt over there pronto! I don't care if there is a bag full of grain in front of him, I demand he acts pleasant at all times, regardless of circumstances.

If he acted pushy and I did take the food away, he had better see it as an act of aggression, that was how it was intended. I would like to be seen as Alpha horse, "that food is mine when I say it is mine, you had better back off".

To me, it is extremely important that I be able to rub all over my horse, touch him, put my hands in his feeder, etc. while he's eating, because if I was unable to do that, it wouldn't necessarily mean he was free of food aggression.

I guess I don't see how it's productive to jump in and pick a fight when the horse is just eating in it's stall. Yes, a horse should be cordial if you approach it and by all means, assert dominance when there's no respect, but arbitrarily separating the horse from it's food just makes no sense to me.

[red00jeep]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

I guess I don't see how it's productive to jump in and pick a fight when the horse is just eating in it's stall. Yes, a horse should be cordial if you approach it and by all means, assert dominance when there's no respect, but arbitrarily separating the horse from it's food just makes no sense to me.

It's not picking a fight when your horse steps away politely.

I do agree, let this mare see food as the reward initially, but eventually she needs to be able to move her when she chooses.

[kmdstar]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

I guess I don't see how it's productive to jump in and pick a fight when the horse is just eating in it's stall. Yes, a horse should be cordial if you approach it and by all means, assert dominance when there's no respect, but arbitrarily separating the horse from it's food just makes no sense to me.

Perhaps there wasn't a way for her to get Kinta away from her food BEFORE she already started chowing down. I think it would work best to work on manners BEFORE she gets to chow down at all, but if not possible, I don't see anything wrong with how it was handled.

She took her away from her food, MADE her wait until she behaved, then after she continued to behave, she got her food (reward). You get the same result either way IMO.

Originally Posted by red00jeep

It's not picking a fight when your horse steps away politely.

I do agree, let this mare see food as the reward initially, but eventually she needs to be able to move her when she chooses.

Exactly. My horse is known for taking other horses grain, I can't just HOPE if I go to move her back to her own grain bucket she won't kick out at me/bite/whatever.

[LindaMM]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

I guess I don't see how it's productive to jump in and pick a fight when the horse is just eating in it's stall. Yes, a horse should be cordial if you approach it and by all means, assert dominance when there's no respect, but arbitrarily separating the horse from it's food just makes no sense to me.

Kinta has respect issues. She needs to see humans as having higher social rank than her. A higher ranked horse in a herd will control the food.

Having a human take this same role, and control access to food, is just one more tool in a horseman's bag to be able to establish social rank, and therefore take the leadership role. It's as much about psychology as it is about training by rewarding quiet, obedient behavior with food.

[luvmyride]

My horses have to understand that everything I want belongs to me. That includes the food they are eating at any given time. The don't go towards their food until I back away and let them eat it. If at any time I want to "take the food back" they need to back away. In fact, I don't feel that this lesson has truly been learned until my horses will back away, and ignore the fact that I have food. I don't want them to even look in my direction.

My barn feeds the horses in the mornings, I always like to ride in the mornings. If I come in at 8:30, and my horse has some hay left, we are still going to go riding. I don't withhold food, but I do expect my horses to be ready to go at a moments notice.

Think about it this way. If you have a herd of horses, and the low mare on the totem pole found a nice patch of grass, what would the alpha do? It wouldn't matter if the low horse was mid bite, the alpha would chase the lower horse away.... it's the same principle.

[Capilet]

My big girl is my alpha mare--1600lbs of draftX.

When she needs a tune up, she goes in a stiff rope halter with a 12ft lead and popper for at least a week with the barn staff and we do boot camp. I also suggest a longer dressage or in-hand whip over a lunge whip in close quarters like a stall/pen. A chain is a possibility too, but I make them a next level in my 'program'.

Cay is more of a door-rusher, so she knows the command WAIT. When she is being reminded, I say it once and stop before the stall--she is expected to stop and wait. If she does not, we start over, and she gets a pop on the nose with the halter.

This same sort of repetitive dominance might work well with Kinta and feed/cleaning as well.

[canine46]

i have to agree with rummymuffin, i would not have started her "retraining" during dinner time. I would have picked a time first to work on her leading, which is a most basic issue, and work from there, i'm not saying let her run over you during feeding time , etc. But i think you jumped into the middle of what your retraining should have been and didn't start at the beginning with the basic respect on a lead.
Your first encounter sounds like you just made her stressed and anxious while she was eating, which is not good in my eyes at all, stress related colic and ulcers could be the outcome if you don't start at level one and build from there.

JMHO

As far as kicking your horse, that to me is uncalled for, get a short crop, far easier to work with, just don't overdue it, you sound like your' trying to fix your horse's learned behavior in one lesson, not going to work.
plus kicking your horse, if it decides to run over you and you have one foot off the ground, your going to be a door mat wether you want to or not.
maybe you could get a proffessional to help you with this

[kmdstar]

Originally Posted by canine46

i have to agree with rummymuffin, i would not have started her "retraining" during dinner time. I would have picked a time first to work on her leading, which is a most basic issue, and work from there, i'm not saying let her run over you during feeding time , etc. But i think you jumped into the middle of what your retraining should have been and didn't start at the beginning with the basic respect on a lead.
Your first encounter sounds like you just made her stressed and anxious while she was eating, which is not good in my eyes at all, stress related colic and ulcers could be the outcome if you don't start at level one and build from there.

Maybe I missed something, but how do any of us know that Kinta isn't already fine to lead around? I really feel like I missed something here!