[marybear06]

I know how you feel!! We have a 5 yr old mare that we bred and she took the first time... we bred her dam, who is about 18... and well this is the 3rd go round..we are hoping she took this time, but won't be sure till later in the month!! We did LC with her, and AI with the 5 yr old.

I wish u the best of luck in getting your mare in foal! I know its frustrating but just hang in there!

Thank you. And I hope everything goes well for you too!

[Equine Repro]

Originally Posted by marybear06

.
My game plan was to try to get the smaller of her 2 follicles to get big enough to ovulate for this breeding (otherwise if we bred her on the 1st follicle and then the 2nd one hung around for a few more days it would keep her in heat and the first breeding wouldn’t take). Her 1st follicle cooperated nicely and had ovulated at some point between last night and this afternoon, but the 2nd follicle is just going away now, not ovulating (it’s down to a 25, so it’s not going to grow back a this point).

HUH??????? Find a new vet. That's just not how the mare's reproductive cycle works. When the mare ovulates off of the first follicle a corpus luteum develops. The CL produces progesterone which is part of the cascade of hormones that moves the mare into anestrus (the period between estrus when the mare is not receptive to breeeding). Additionally, let's say that the mare was bred on the first follicle and even using your vet's incorrect theory, the sperm swim up into the oviducts and fertilize the egg. It then takes 5.5 days before the conceptus even drops into the uterus, so even if the mare remained in estrus and additional couple days, it has no impact on whether or not fertization occurs! You breed on the dominant follicle, e.g., the larger one. If the second one continues to grow and ovulates, you breed on that one, as well. But, you don't forego the dominant follicle in the hopes that the smaller follicle ovulates. If you end up with a double ovulation, great! It doubles your chances of a pregnancy. And, if you end up with twins, they are easily dealt with by reducing one.

The dilemma now is that if the 1st follicle ovulated within 6 hours of when I bred her it will still be a viable breeding. My gut feeling is that we weren’t that lucky and we were too late, but you really can’t tell just by looking at the ovary how old it is (you can tell if it’s only 1 or 2 hours old, and it was older than that, but beyond that, it’s a toss up). She WAS still teasing in this morning, but they can tease in for a little while after they ovulate.

Mares will continue to tease 24 to 48 hours after ovulation. It's all part of the process to assist in oxytocin release, etc.

SO, our options at this point are:
1. Wait to see if we lucked out and this breeding worked. She could go home now, and then you could bring her back in 18 days for a recheck. If this one didn’t work she should be ready to be rebred the next day or 2 after that check. The other question with this option is: I was planning to flush her after we bred her. Do you still want to pay for the flush when this might not have been a good breeding, or just try it without the flush and see what happens?

<sigh>...Why 18 days? By then the conceptus, if there is one, is fixed. And, let's assume that the mare ovulated on both follicles, you would have twins to deal with and they are no longer mobile in the uterus, so you can't separate them should they be adjacent to each other. It makes reducing one really, really, REALLY difficult. Secondly, if your mare decides not to read the book, she could be ready to breed by that time and you could be placed in a time crunch for getting semen. Check her at 14 or 15 days. If she's not pregnant, you then have time to plan. If she's pregnant wtih twins, you can still move them around and separate them. If your vet is concerned about not being able to "find" a pregnancy at 14 days, DEFINITELY find a new vet. A 14 day pregnancy is so darn obvious as to be difficult to NOT find!

Why are you planning on flushing her? Does she have an infection? Has she had a uterine culture and cytology done? Does she have uterine fluid? By flushing arbitrarily, you run the risk of creating the very situation you are hoping to "treat". Every time you go into the uterus, you run the risk of introducing pathogens. Less is more sometimes.

As you can see...we're all pretty down about this whole turn of events. We told her whatever she feels comfortable doing is okay with us. But honestly, my hopes for anything working out are just about gone right now.

Boy, judging by what your vet has said, I'd definitely be scrambling for one that understood the mare's reproductive cycle a bit better. Sorry to be blunt, but I've truly never heard of a vet foregoing breeding on a dominant follicle in preference of breeding on a smaller follicle. I'm still just marveling at that one... Good luck!

Kathy ST.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Spotted Mustang]

I am in no way a vet of any kind, but when I read that, it sounded odd even to me.

Even so, I am very sorry it is not working out well. And I hope you manage to get your lovely mare in-foal this season.

[sambersmate]

would have to say that the latter thread is a much more accurate protocol to be following, twins are so easily removed and better two than one, wish more vets would scan earlier, client having a twin removed today at 18 days scanned yesterday and they are on top of one another, they came back today to see if they had seperated themselves...... sigh............

we had one twin popped yesterday one in each horn and its our second this year.. other mare now has a single pregnancy..

[Haas Horse Farm]

Thanks ER... I really shook my head reading that and wondered at my schooling... but really wondered if there maybe was something new and improved that I had missed since I am after all not a vet but have just worked with a lot of them on breeding. I too share the feeling that the mare owner needs a new vet. I am breathing better knowing that you think so to as I really hate telling others (as I am sure you do too) that they need to find a new vet.

To the OP,
Have your mare checked back 14/15 days from the date the semen went in... I hope for you she has a CL. I would be tempted to take her to another vet entirely that has an US machine and just have her checked to see if she is in foal.

[Paxo]

MAN!!! I am so glad Im not going crazy ER... I to was thinking sheesh I go my first year without broodmare job and Im getting totally out of touch?? I would have FREEKED in previous years if the dominant follicle was ignored, I say in all honesty your vet owes you some money IMO I'd be spitting nails. She seems like a super nice lady and keeps great communication, but lacks completely in education and Im no DVM LOL

[marybear06]

Wow. I guess I had best brush up on my reproductive knowledge as well! Thank you all for your insight. I think I'll write her an email with some (now well-informed) questions.

Again, thank you everyone for sharing this information and giving your insights! I'll be sure to let everyone know what she says and keep you all posted.