[FoxyRoxy1507]

[/quote]
Now, to be fair, my experience with Monty Roberts came from watching videos, where my preferred media is reading (as in, most other trainers methods I have studied in books....maybe it's apples to oranges). So I watch him "join up"....not a spectacular demonstration, not a disaster. But then he saddled the horse and had someone ride. It all looked very rushed to me, and the horse did not look one bit comfortable with what was going on. As he chased the horse around with rider on, he said something to the effect that some bucking was no big deal....well sure, I guess it's no big deal if you've got a "boy" to do your riding for you....personally, I like to work that out before I get on. I dunno, I can't even remember many specifics of what he said (which tells you something too), but I remember feeling overall pretty unimpressed and even uncomfortable after watching.[/quote]

I have been to a Monty Roberts seminar, i was going to b in it but my horse came up lame to use in the show bc Monty had her on a lunge line chasing her around on hard ground with rocks and she hurt her foot. any way besides that... i was having trouble putting a bit in her mouth was one issue... his way to solve that was he said "o just put some honey on the bit tie her head down and shove it in her mouth, she'll like it eventually", he then turned around and walked away! i also saw him trying to work with a pony that was scared of clippers, in the round pen he had two guys help him. one took a small gate and shoved the pony to the side of the round pen with the gate and both guys wedged the pony there with the gate so he couldnt move and then monty climbed up on the gate and proceeded to clip the pony. the poor pony was so terrified it started screaming and kicking and he just kept going until the pony wore itself out and he was like "see, now it is being submissive" submissive my *ss poor thing was too tired to fight anymore, prob more scared of clippers now than it was before, not to mention round pens and men now! another thing that happened was my friends mare had been in a serious trailer accident therefore she was very afraid, well he just whipped her with the rope until he could make her jump in the trailer, took about 2 hrs, wore her down too, she was pouring sweat.... shes still terrified of trailers.

i'm sorry that was so long, i just used to Mentor Monty Roberts, had read all his books and waited 2years to be in one of the his seminars, then i finally get to be in it and this is what i witnessed first hand. after that, i totally was disgusted with him.

[estherj92]

People who go to watch someone have to accept to listen to what they are going to set forth in their demonstration. You don't have to agree, and yes, while it isn't necessary to put it into their demonstration, they are the trainers, and they are kind of in charge of the show, if you know what I mean. If people value their methods and horse-related instruction enough they should at least tolerate if not appreciate other things they might spend a few minutes setting forth. I am not attacking people's opinions, however...just voicing my own.

[Jenje!]

For what it's worth, I'm NOT a Christian (agnostic teetering on the edge of atheism) and I have never been bothered at all by Lyons' religious views. I'm a big fan of his, in fact!

[Suzannah]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

His Faith wouldn't be more than a sham if he didn't do what he does at his clinics. EVERYTHING we do (Christians) we do through Christ. All our abilities and talents come from him, so to use those talents and not recognize and acknowledge where they come from is living a false Christian life. So if you do really respect even his faith, then you should not be reacting negatively to his expressing it.

Says you. I know about many, many Christians who do not feel the need to do this, and they are deeply spiritual human beings. And then I have the people who anonymously put fundamentalist Christian literature in my mailbox because I am going to h.ell. How about a little respect for what I practice?

That aside, thanks for the warning. I know which clinics not to go to.

[estherj92]

Exactly. You don't mind what he shares. What he shares about his faith is what he should be doing. Granted the management doesn't make him say what he does, but in choosing to risk his popularity with a critical few, he is choosing to honor the Lord which is far more important and is indeed someone that as a Christian we are to do in every area of our life. HORSE TRAINING included. Also, although some of you don't seem to like his way of expressing his faith and sharing about it, he still seems to have remained very well known and nationally respected. When someone takes a stand to do what is right and honor God, the Lord will not desert them. Even if the crowds desert them, He won't, and they will know that they did right.

[noreins]

Originally Posted by Suzannah

Says you. I know about many, many Christians who do not feel the need to do this, and they are deeply spiritual human beings. And then I have the people who anonymously put fundamentalist Christian literature in my mailbox because I am going to h.ell. How about a little respect for what I practice?

That aside, thanks for the warning. I know which clinics not to go to.

Any who actually follows the bible would know that God given talents are meant to be used to praise the Lord and bring others to him. Christians may be hated for it but our duty is to spread his word. Those who sing, write, whatever it may be, are to use those talents to do his good. Lyons is simply doing the christian thing and I applaud him for that.

[Suzannah]

Originally Posted by noreins

Any who actually follows the bible would know that God given talents are meant to be used to praise the Lord and bring others to him. Christians may be hated for it but our duty is to spread his word. Those who sing, write, whatever it may be, are to use those talents to do his good. Lyons is simply doing the christian thing and I applaud him for that.

Not even sure why I am having this conversation. Not all Christians believe they way you do, and they read the Bible.

Unsubscribing because this argument is fruitless.

[estherj92]

"However, I am far from saying that a trainer can't put on an awesome demonstration without mentioning God to the audience. I know many don't, and they can still be very impressive..." --an earlier post
When I said this I meant that non-Christian trainers and even Christian trainers who choose not to mention God and their faith in their demonstrations can still put on good demonstrations from a training perspective. But, on a different note, if they have the courage to honour Christ at the risk of their popularity with few, I for one respect and appreciate them much more. May God Bless Them! Some people's lives have been changed by the witnessing John Lyons does, and those people most assuredly thank God for reaching them in a venue of interest for them, where, of all places, they would least have expected to find Him.

[estherj92]

By the way, Suzannah, even if you choose to unsubscribe, as you must have learned already just from reading training, there is a big difference between reading about a book and living by it, and likewise, between following it half-heartedly, and striving to live by it whole-heartedly. The one may involve a private opinion, while the other allows no hiding of our beliefs for fear of what people may or may not say. There are times when the best of us will make mistakes, that is only human, but by God's grace, it is a Christian's duty and privilege to acknowledge Christ's lordship over their lives.

[Bruce Wiley]

Originally Posted by Pally

Hmm....not sure if I want to respond now.....

Not that flipping a rope at a horse is violent.....but I don't even remember seeing that anywhere in John Lyons materials....maybe the round pen stuff? Anyway, John is definitely one of the gentlest guys out there with the horses. He's the type not to lose patience, and if you could learn that from him...that would be an accomplishment in and of itself. He is quite well known for "three second kill" method after a horse bites, but if you implement it the way he describes it (and not just the way some people do), then it's absolutely warranted. His methods are based very much in conditioned response, and being able to move the horses feet.

Anyway, I am a big John Lyons fan overall, and here are my main reasons why. The baby steps nature of his teachings, is not only good for the horse, but makes it easy for the human. The way he teaches pressure and release is on such a small scale, that I think it actually teaches people feel around horses. He does not encourage rushing. He is open to the idea of learning from others and other training methods. While he does have his own stuff to sell, there's never the feeling of pressure that you can't possibly work without them.


Now, to be fair, my experience with Monty Roberts came from watching videos, where my preferred media is reading (as in, most other trainers methods I have studied in books....maybe it's apples to oranges). So I watch him "join up"....not a spectacular demonstration, not a disaster. But then he saddled the horse and had someone ride.
(Well, its been awhile seen I last saw this, but it was a dummpy doll, he had placed also secured in ad to the saddle and was aboard the horse where it was chase around the round pen)...
It all looked very rushed to me, and the horse did not look one bit comfortable with what was going on. As he chased the horse around with rider on, he said something to the effect that some bucking was no big deal....well sure, I guess it's no big deal if you've got a "boy" to do your riding for you....personally, I like to work that out before I get on. I dunno, I can't even remember many specifics of what he said (which tells you something too), but I remember feeling overall pretty unimpressed and even uncomfortable after watching.

The above comments was very well stated by Pally.
So, I have to agree with these view points.