[accphotography]

Some of the things that were noted positively about this horse would limit most horses from being a performer and would also have them excel at halter. Unfortunately the judges of halter do not realize that most of the hroses they chose can't perform. Judging should create the standard for the best all around horse, but it doesn't. Current halter judges also pick horses with alot of obvious flaws intentionally.

ACC

[Acme Acres]

That's all a matter of opinion as to them not being able to perform. I know quite a few horses that are "halter" bred and do ride quite nicely. As far as picking horses with obvious flaws intentionally, they have to place what is there and determine which flaw is the least detrimental to the overall horse. It's not like you can be a specialty judge and choose what events you like to judge. Many of the judges I've shown under are performance trainers before they were judges!

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Acme Acres

JB, it's not just race horse breeders. Its any GOOD breeder. The ones that can name every horse on a pedigree, their earnings, their stats, their weaknesses AND their strengths. what they cross best with, what they cross worse with.

Yes, you're absolutely right

[Banat]

Originally Posted by accphotography

Unfortunately the judges of halter do not realize that most of the hroses they chose can't perform. Judging should create the standard for the best all around horse, but it doesn't. Current halter judges also pick horses with alot of obvious flaws intentionally.

ACC

I'll 2nd that!! Downhill, sicklehocked Arabs and downhill post legged, upright stock breeds.

On another note, these photos sure illustrate how even equine athletes start to droop and sag as they get older (When did my "girls" decide to get lazy and hang out where they are now? I swear they weren't there yesterday!! )

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

I'm still waiting for you two to say why you think Secretariat was so poorly conformed he should *never* have been bred.

I've stated several times

horrible neck tied in far too low, slightly steeper than ideal shoulder, poor loin attachment, croup like a ski slope, weak hip, upright hocks and over at the knee.

[Lou3]

honestly compare Secretariat who had poor conformation and who's offspring were seriously below par performance wise to double trigger who's racing foals have a 69% winners strike rate and is also in big demand as an event horse sire.



Just look at the difference between the poor conformation of secretariat and the MUCH better conformation of a horse who not only had a fabulous win record himself but also passes that ability on to his foals.
Conformation may not be the be all and end all for SOME horses performance wise, but it does make a BIG difference when it comes to the breeding shed.

[lips]

Originally Posted by Lou3

honestly compare Secretariat who had poor conformation and who's offspring were seriously below par performance wise to double trigger who's racing foals have a 69% winners strike rate and is also in big demand as an event horse sire.



Just look at the difference between the poor conformation of secretariat and the MUCH better conformation of a horse who not only had a fabulous win record himself but also passes that ability on to his foals.
Conformation may not be the be all and end all for SOME horses performance wise, but it does make a BIG difference when it comes to the breeding shed.

WOOHOO!! Now THAT"S a nice TB! Thanks! And that IS the difference and Lou is absolutley correct on all said here........

[JBandRio]

Yes, it's a nice TB there Lou! I think you're missing the point though, but that's ok. It's mostly opinion anyway Yes, there are some (many?) TB stallions and mares who are bred purely on bloodlines or performance who are horribly conformed and pass that conformation on and some of that has led to increases in injuries, and that really needs to stop.

But likewise, there are some very nicely conformed stallions/mares with a decent performance record (or the start of one, with the promise of more to come, but the value is in the breeding shed for those) who are also bred and produce nothing - not in their first generation, not in their 2nd or 3rd generation, nothing. Ferdinand comes to mind - better conformation than Secretariat, not-too-shabby race record (29 starts, $3.7mil earnings), but produced nothing, zilch, and ended up in the Japanese slaughterhouse.

Secretariat's conformation wasn't perfect (not sure I agree with those who think he was "near perfect") but pretty nice as far as racing conformation goes - he raced pretty hard and didn't break down and that's important. There are "racehorse" conformation types, and there are "racehorse who could also be a sporthorse" conformation, and they are quite different, though each has the potential to be good at racing. The former is often downhill with a steeper croup - allows for a greater coil of the loins for greater power, and that's what Sec had. That's what Storm Cat has, as well as AP Indy, )who, btw, for those who didn't guess, are the 2 horses I listed and are also Secretariat descendants) both horse's damsire is Secretariat - that broodmare sire thing coming into play ). The sporthorse type, which is the type you posted Lou, could easily go on to have a very successful "normal" performance horse career if that's how things turned.

As already indicated, "good" conformation is somewhat dependent on discipline. One does not look at a textbook Show Hunter as a perfectly conformed horse when it comes to Dressage, and one does not look at a perfectly conformed Saddlebred when it comes to Hunters, and so on.

[FallenAngel]

Wow this is a great thread i think, ive learned so much from it!

[Acme Acres]

And, by the same token, its nearly impossible to compare what is "today's" standard in both conformation and racing or showing weight/condition to what was back then. Point in case is Foundation QHs.... look at the founding sires and look at them now. You can't tell me that you honestly think some of them are great to look at... but you know what... I'd take a lot of them over some now, bad necks and all.