[belsenj]

I think the next horse I get will be a gelding and I'll name him Pop!

[tucklove]

I agree with your plan to get after her. I understand she was expressing pain or discomfort, but my horses get in LOADS of trouble when they direct any kind of aggression towards me for any reason, no matter what. I look at it this way, if I went to the doctor and s/he knew my leg hurt, then s/he touched it I screamed, "Don't!" and kicked them in the face, well, I just can't see that ending well for either of us. Just like I might flinch and tell the doctor that it hurt, I expect my horses to tell me when something bothers them without acting out. Your trainer's advice strikes me as strange.

[Rosie12]

I agree with tucklove and Crazyhorse; if it's dangerous behaviour of course I'm going to pop them. Certain situations call for ignorance, however. ie: making my gelding yeild his hindquarters he decided to try and scare me away from tapping his hip with the lunge whip, so he pinned his ears and began to rear while going the exact wrong way. My reaction was to give stronger signals of the right thing to do. It was an ignorance of a kind...and that works with him. He cut it out after the third time and has never tried it again.

What I normally do with 'tender' body areas and agression with those is an immediate repremand equal to the crime, and then slowly go back and re-think what I'm doing and how I'm going to do it. Sometimes I work more on other areas and it helps them when I come back to that area. I help them understand I'm not going to hurt them. However, if they keep doing agressive behaviour and don't seem to be getting better after multiple times (and I mean probably a complete month or two) then I begin to repremand them and test how well their memory is.

[sunrisegurl146]

I gotta agree that when a horse puts you in a dangerous situation she/he is going to get in trouble.

Last week we had strange horses over working in the arena. It was the 3rd day Athena had been in her new paddock. I took her out and was cleaning her hooves. She didn't give me any trouble with the her hooves. I had checked her over for pain a few minutes before so I wouldn't be put in a position where she's want to kick out.

She was antsy and a little excited. I picked up her last hind hoof and was cleaning it out. They were pretty nasty (mud) so it was taking me a bit of time to clean them. She got impatient ripped her hoof out of my hand and kicked out at me.

I barely talk to my horse..I don't really feel the need. I do so when I'm trying to calm her down or when I'm getting her in trouble.

I CANNOT abide kicking out. I knew she wasn't in pain and shes a doll usually when I'm working with her hooves. As I once showed my farrier..she'll usually let me do ANYTHING to her feet ( )

BUT this once she decided to test me and see what happened.


I reached up and gave her a smack on the butt (I have VERY slight and tiny hands..she didn't even flinch) and said "NO!" in a firm loud voice.

After talking to her in a no nonsense voice for about 15 seconds I tried again. Nothing. She stood still and calmly.

[OregonRain]

yeah, obviously she was in pain when you touched her girth area. But there are other ways for her to communicate her pain to you besides biting so i am with you on getting after her for it. biting is NOT ok and she should be told so in a way that she will understand.
my mare, Lacee, tried to bite me ONCE. yes, i popped her for it and no she's never tried it again. She's old and gets sore in certain places. I check her for soreness and now when she wants to tell me "oww! That hurts!" she'll throw her head up a bit and pin her ears (not at me). I'm fine with her doing that, just don't bite me!!

[EVOO]

tucklove put it beautifully.

And I don't think it's "old school", I think it's "common sense"

What happens when the horse steps on something with a hind hoof and has been allowed to get away with throwing a tizzy over pain in the past? Is your trainer going to volunteer to be the one who bends over with her head behind that hoof to check it out? I bet not.

[angie j]

Originally Posted by MuckMuck

So if the reason that your horse is reacting to you is either PAIN or PAIN memory,then how do we want to deal with this?.......You will be careful and will listen to their BASIC needs.
.....Most horses that exhibit this kind of behavior have been hurt while cinching.

One of my horses would start acting out the minute he saw the saddle in hand. It took a year of patience to let him know I was NOT going to kick him in the gut before I tightened up. He does blow his chest out, so, I cinch him up by 'degrees'. And without trauma. He still gets goofy when strangers saddle him up.

As for biting... If a horse tries to bite me he's gonna get an elbow in the face. Think of it as a 'block'. He wouldn't try to bite a dominent horse in the field no matter what. But, I will certainly look for reasons 'why' the behavior is happening before I wrongly decide it's 'bratty' behavoir and take that into serious consideration for future handling.

[APHAAQHA]

One thing to consider when a horse tries to bite while the girth is being put on, sometimes a horse has a front rib "out". (as in chiropractic) Granted, this is not the case for all horses, but if your mare suddenly started this behavior, it's something to ponder.

[belsenj]

hmmm, I didn't think about the chiro aspect of her cinchiness - good thought APHAAQHA. I'll have the message therapist check her out next time she comes.

A little history - I don't know where Sienna came from before the auction, but she had lots of problems when I got her. But from the very beginning of having her, she has had a problem with anything going on her back and has been very cinchy. She sees the saddle coming and braces up. Can you say abuse??

btw, I've seen her do a bucking bronc, and she does it VERY well. And I was even asked if she was a bronc... I guess it's not out of the realm that she could have been.

It's gong to take lots of time and patience with her to get her to realize that I'm not going to hurt her every time the saddle comes out, or when she gets girthed. She's got all new tack and it all seems to be fitting her perfectly now. Even a nice big fluffy girth that should not hurt her.

Good news is that yesterday she had a training and we took it real slow, with lots of carrots and get her tacked up without too much ado. She rode very nicely too.

And there's a new rule too - no touching that girth area unless she's on cross ties. I don't want to even give her the opportunity to try that biting again.

I'm hoping that in time, she'll forget that she was ever hurt.

[Beeks]

Originally Posted by belsenj

hmmm, I didn't think about the chiro aspect of her cinchiness - good thought APHAAQHA. I'll have the message therapist check her out next time she comes.

A little history - I don't know where Sienna came from before the auction, but she had lots of problems when I got her. But from the very beginning of having her, she has had a problem with anything going on her back and has been very cinchy. She sees the saddle coming and braces up. Can you say abuse??

I think I would be more inclined to agree with APHAAQHA on this one and say pain. This horse was probably brought to auction because she was deemed incorrigible, when what she really was, was in pain. I have seen the rankest, pig eyes, people haters turn into teddy bears with proper Chiro and massage therapy.

To the question at hand. Pop her and hard. OR-if you expect this to happen again and you are 100% positive it is not a current pain related response, take her to a round pen for saddling. At the first squinch of a nostril or pin of an ear...send her away and work her hard for a few minutes. Get her blowing and asking to come back to you. Then try again, and again for as many times as it take to get her to understand you will not tolerate undesirable behavior when saddling.

BTW, my rescue mare tried to get a chunk of me yesterday as the farrier was reaching for a foot. She got both a good solid smack AND the round pen. No problems after that.