[Little Red Dun]

Originally Posted by ryu2832

I guess it depends on what you want the Paint/QH/Arabain/TB/Draft--any breed that carries these disorders--to be.

I have always seen myself as a steward of the breeds that I represent. That means breeding the best example of the breed that I can, and to me that does not include breeding genetic disorders (recessive or not) that weaken it.

It's really just an excuse. It would take 1 maybe two generations to breed out these disorders and maintain the existing quality, and yet not many are doing it. To me it comes down to $$$$ and not the love of the breed.

If it was a disease like HYPP or something similar I would be inclined to agree. Those disease are weaknesses and affect horses no matter if they carry one copy or two.

However, SCIDS and LWO have been around for many, many years, well before people had any idea they existed. If LWO was a weakness, I highly doubt mustangs (wild born) would have it. If it was that deadly and destroyed a population so much, they would have died out because life is not easy on a feral mustang.

While I commend breeding out flaws and weakness, I do not thinking throwing out the baby with the bathwater is a good plan either. However, your breeding principles are of course your choice and your decision. Some people think the beauty of the pattern is worth it and test responsibly so they never produce a LWO foal. If you do not that is fine, but I do not think it is fair to call others "greedy" or saying "it comes down to the money" if you do not even know them.

OLWS is a very controllable gene with no side-effects in a single dose other than a striking coat pattern. Horses have been bred for generations to certain specifics: greater size, longer legs, prettier heads, etc. All of the things we bred them for cause problems for them. The moment we change something about an animal we are giving it a "flaw" because we are changing what Nature/Evolution/Whatever intended. I fail to see how wishing to keep a pattern is any different than trying for longer legs, a better jump, a prettier face, or greater size.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by Canadian Sage

Thankyou guys. Especially the ones that understand MY point of view.

Not that its a difference but this stud has only produced colts (of which are all gelded or going to be gelded) so SO FAR none of his offspring are producing.

Personally, I don't think you will ever eliminate lethal white, I don't see how its going to be possible (not everyone is going to NOT breed to a lethal white, so...just like impressive...unless associations STOP accepting horses with lethal white, i dont see how it will be eliminated).

Anyway.

Her site is:

Valley Visions Paints

She runs and operates her website herself, I think she told me she is going to upgrade someday to a nicer, planned out better website.

The black colt (right hand side), the grullo, and the bay colt are by PP Chips Treasure.

Some really nice horses! I have seen this picture before:


I didn't know anything about him, but someone posted it on here. I absolutely love this baby!!! Your filly was not sired by her stallion, though, right? I remember seeing pics of a nice toby stud.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by Little Red Dun

If it was a disease like HYPP or something similar I would be inclined to agree. Those disease are weaknesses and affect horses no matter if they carry one copy or two.

However, SCIDS and LWO have been around for many, many years, well before people had any idea they existed. If LWO was a weakness, I highly doubt mustangs (wild born) would have it. If it was that deadly and destroyed a population so much, they would have died out because life is not easy on a feral mustang.

While I commend breeding out flaws and weakness, I do not thinking throwing out the baby with the bathwater is a good plan either. However, your breeding principles are of course your choice and your decision. Some people think the beauty of the pattern is worth it and test responsibly so they never produce a LWO foal. If you do not that is fine, but I do not think it is fair to call others "greedy" or saying "it comes down to the money" if you do not even know them.

OLWS is a very controllable gene with no side-effects in a single dose other than a striking coat pattern. Horses have been bred for generations to certain specifics: greater size, longer legs, prettier heads, etc. All of the things we bred them for cause problems for them. The moment we change something about an animal we are giving it a "flaw" because we are changing what Nature/Evolution/Whatever intended. I fail to see how wishing to keep a pattern is any different than trying for longer legs, a better jump, a prettier face, or greater size.

Or for more "cow" and greater athleticism.

[Canadian Sage]

No, he is not the sire of my filly.

My filly is by Hes Got The Assets, and then if you look on her site her dam's name is Emma.

I am getting Katie tested for the lethal white once I get her home, I am quite positive she carries frame as she has a blue eye, and her dam was frame.

I was quite an Ike (the grullo) fan myself. He was supposed to come up last year to Canada to show, but they sold him the week before he was supposed to come so I missed seeing him in person by a week! darnit!

[SkyeTiger]

Well I'm sure that that makes you feel a heck of a lot better that your buying a baby from her.

You will be proud to say where you bought Katie from.

[Acme Acres]

Originally Posted by ryu2832

I'm sorry, but I don't get why that makes her a honest/great breeder.

She's still using a stud that carries the LW, so any foal she sells is still a potential carrier. All she's doing is cutting out a 25% loss in her foal crop, her rate of producing LW carriers is still 50%...or am I missing something?

Good for her for being upfront about the LW Stud she's using, but I don't think she should get any points for knowingly breeding a potentially lethal gene into her herd.

If she was serious about it, she wouldn't be using that stud. Hopefully she eliminates all the LW broodmares and changes the stud to a non-carrier.

JMO as a small operation breeder.

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with using a lethal white carrier. If you don't want to risk a SMALL chance on getting a lethal foal then that's your right and choice. But as long as people (including myself) like the Frame Overo pattern, you will have the lethal gene.

I happen to know the gal that Sage bought the filly from and she is an honest breeder regardless of what she PERSONALLY chooses to breed for. It's the not telling people the reprocussions of their actions that deems people bad breeders to me.

[ryu2832]

Originally Posted by Acme Acres

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with using a lethal white carrier. If you don't want to risk a SMALL chance on getting a lethal foal then that's your right and choice. But as long as people (including myself) like the Frame Overo pattern, you will have the lethal gene.

I happen to know the gal that Sage bought the filly from and she is an honest breeder regardless of what she PERSONALLY chooses to breed for. It's the not telling people the reprocussions of their actions that deems people bad breeders to me.

I'm sure she's a nice person, and I'm sure she understands what she is breeding. But for one who does, there's 10 that don't. If she's only selling geldings, awesome.

I just don't put the importance of a coat pattern above the breed. I think it's pretty, it's my favorite pattern, but I won't ever own one.

Also, I'm not so sure that being recessive doesn't cause problems. When I was looking up the actual gene responsible for LW, I ran across some new papers studying developmental defects in recessive carriers--I think it's something they are just starting to look into.

If it comes out that recessive carriers do have an increased risk for developmental internal defects, will that change your stance? If it was 10, 20, 30% would that make a difference?

Here's one on overo's with white face/blue eyes testing the link to deafness.
Harland MM, Stewart AJ, Marshall AE, Belknap EB.
Related Articles, LinksDiagnosis of deafness in a horse by brainstem auditory evoked potential.
Can Vet J. 2006 Feb;47(2):151-4.
PMID: 16579041 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Acme Acres]

Deafness is linked to the Splash gene, not the frame. Im sorry, but I refuse to not use our stallion just because he's a lethal white carrier. And no, there is NO issues with carring the lethal gene, unless bred to another carrier. At least with Lethals, you put them down and it's over with, rather quickly and painless compared to HYPP attacks or having your 2 yr old broke out only to find they're positive for HERDA.

Besides, what if a breeder never bred two carriers (lethal/hypp/herda) together, but they constantly over fed, over worked, injected and sweated their horses? Would people see them as responsible or good? I for one believe in breeding two good horses together (regardless of their lethal white status). I don't force anyone to breed their positive mares to our stallion, but if they choose to, we'll even honor a live foal guarantee... and they can swap out mares if they feel they need to, as it's their choice.

Everyone has their ideas on what "perfect" is. My idea is different than yours Im sure, and yours is different than 10 other peoples (as is mine), but including a specific pattern or color in a breeding program is not putting pattern above the breed. There's quite a few founding sires that were very prepotent in producing lethals (My Painted Robin line is very strong in it, so is the Im Easy horses). I'd rather see people breed correctly formed, good natured, well bred horses together that carry the gene than breeding crooked legs, bad disposition and homozygous for this or that (not all that are homozygous are qualified for gelding/non breeding status, but many are).

And as for the deafness, in may situations, it's a big bonus to have a horse that's deaf.

[Canadian Sage]

I just wanted to comment that is has been by chance that this stud has only thrown colts so far. We ARE hoping for a fily next year, or at least she is anyway! lol!

I do like frame overo's too personally. I actually like all the patterns of the paint horse.

I would hate to see the frame eliminated as it is just as unique and gorgeous as the others.

I am with Acme on this one!

[Acme Acres]

LOL. Bummer part is Ike's just turned out to pasture. He looks happy, but not as happy as when Lisa had him. Of course he was in show shape then