[TrickPony]

Okay... sorry, but this is really starting to get to me.

When natural horsemanship first started being marketed to a wide audience, I thought it presented some neat ideas (through Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli, John Lyons, some of those original guys). I didn't agree with everything, but some of the literature was very interesting and I liked the idea of working with your horse instead of against it.

Now, however, it's just getting ridiculous. Today, I was riding my horse at a public arena, and he was refusing to back. This is a training issue he has - the previous owner would let him walk through the stop and back up.

So, I was carrying a dressage whip, walked him into a fence, and asked for the backup again. He just set himself against it - so rather than pull harder on his mouth, I tapped him on the chest with my dressage whip. Still no response, so I gave him a pretty hearty smack to wake him up and to let him know he can't just not respond to a cue.

Note... he had three chances to do the right thing here. I've been practicing this with him quite a bit, and he now knows that walking into a fence and rolling back on my seatbones means to stop and backup. He's also clear on the back-up cue (rein pressure). The first tap was a light one. So - by the time I really got after him, it wasn't like I was harrassing him for no reason.
After that - he backed freely and lightly every time I asked him.

This lady comes over out of the blue and starts on some 15 minute rant aboout how she's this amazing natural horsemanship trainer and could really help me get over some of these resistance issues through trust and cooperation.
It just went on and on and on... I seriously wanted to kill myself.

You know what? Being able to run a horse around in a roundpen does not make you a natural horsemanship trainer. Being able to ride your horse without a bridle does not mean that you have this deeper than thou connection with your horse.
Hitting your horse does not mean that your training methods are inferior... just different. Hello, horses kick, bite, and otherwise hurt each other in the pasture. Pain is just another way of getting a point across in the animal kingdom.

Sorry, just had to get this off my chest. Since the whole "natural horsemanship" movement 10 years ago, it seems like suddenly everybody is a trainer. Back off with this stuff. It's a way of getting things done, but not neccesarily THE way.

And you know what? My horses like me well enough to let me hang off the side of them - they have some many chances to kill me if they really wanted to. And yes, I hit them, get after them, and not all my methods are "natural". But at the end of the day they are still well trained, respectful, and not afraid of humans.

[Jess!]

AMEN!!!! I hate natural horsemanship too.

And yes, I hit them, get after them, and not all my methods are "natural".

Same here. Don't like it? Bite me.

[PaintedRocket]

I bow to you *bows* ! ! ! !

I do like many of the ideas that Natural Horsemanship has to offer, and I know they work...but for SOME horses, not EVERY horse. People don't seem to understand that horses have their own personalities. Same do dogs and not ALL training techniques work with EVERY single one. People have to learn to give and take different techniques and advice. It seems that people clump animals into this catagory that they are JUST animals and they all learn the same way... WRONG! Try training my dog to not chase horses, LOL. I have nothing AGAINST ANYONE who practices any form of NH, but that doesn't give anyone with any kind of training to bombard you with a 15min lecture ..and so forth...unless you are truely being abusive to your animal..that's a different story altogether.

Originally Posted by TrickPony

And yes, I hit them, get after them, and not all my methods are "natural".

I would actually think this is natural...since it's similar to what horses do to eachother ..whether they're in the wild, or tame horses in a pasture or paddock. If one horse is disrespectful to another, a good kick or bite is warranted...

[i_luv_wildfire]

I totally agree. I'm ALL for giving pain-free cues to a horse-the FIRST time! If that doesn't work, you bet your butt I'm going to get after that horse and if it hurts, well, in Jess's words: "Bite me." That horse had a chance to do what I asked and not feel a thing. They didn't take it so you better believe I'm going to step up the cue. If that means a pop with a whip or a smack with a lead rope, then fine. I WILL yell at a horse and I WILL use a flat hand to smack them. If they jump, good. It means I got my point across.
There are times when using light, patient cues works wonders...and there are times when you have to use a little pain to get what you want. It's life.

[TrickPony]

Originally Posted by PaintedRocket

I would actually think this is natural...since it's similar to what horses do to eachother ..whether they're in the wild, or tame horses in a pasture or paddock. If one horse is disrespectful to another, a good kick or bite is warranted...

Exactly. I mean obviously there is a line... but if my horse is disrespectful to me I'm gonna jump all over him... not just "wiggle the leadrope" or something like that.

[PaintedRocket]

Totally. Horses give warnings to eachother, hence pinning back ears... just like we'll give 'em a good tap...if that doesn't work... SMACK! I've done it countless times and will continue doing so.. I'm not going to sit there " Oh Miracle, PLEASE be a good boy for me! I'll give you lots of treats..." and so on and so forth. I ask nicely ..then firmer... 3 strikes, you're out! Lol. Same rules apply with boyfriends

[sonnysstar]

My instructor is a certified John Lyons trainer, and she has me doing something almost identical to what you are doing! Some people just take it way to far, what you did doesn't even come close to what horses do to each other outside.

[JBandRio]

It's not NH you hate, it's the know-it-alls who feel the need to push NH-specific techniques on everyone and their brother. A GOOD NH'er would have just said there, perhaps offered a word or two of advice, and let that be that, opening the door for you to come to him/her for more info. The lady who "harrassed" you is a wanna-be, who likely thinks that any way but a documented NH training method is cruel to the horse.

Don't let folks like this turn you off NH. You are already using NH techniques - upping the phases until the horse responds, giving him time at each phase to answer or ignore.

[i_luv_wildfire]

There are some horses who will just absolutely PLOW right through you if you don't bully them a little. Wiggling the lead rope is not going to do anything. I've worked with a couple horses like these--heck I'm sure most of us have--and it takes a little pain to get them to go "Oh, hey...she DOES mean stop being an ***!" I mean I have gotten to the point with a horse where I was screaming "BACK UP!!" and smacking him on the chest hard with a lead rope before he listened. Was I gentle at first? Yeah, of course. Did it work? No. Not at all.

Oh, and can I just add that I hate how people market NH? I mean, to me NH is acting like a horse to try and communicate with a horse. It's thinking like a horse. It's not shelling out several hundred bucks to get some DVD's and a glorified lunge whip and halter/lead combo so that you, too, can listen to your horse. I mean, no one invented natural horsemanship. It was just there. People have developed phrases and techniques for teaching other people how to think like a horse, but they didn't invent the language itself. It's always been there.

[Zoomarsgirl]

I agree! Well said.