I HATE "Natural" Horsemanship!!!!

littlecelticpony · 07-10-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublebarr

LOL PR! Hey, if you beat a dead horse long enough, will it get up?

ONLY if you beat it NATURALLY!

wyldterv · 07-10-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlecelticpony

ONLY if you beat it NATURALLY!

If you're going to use the Natural route, you don't beat it at all, you KICK IT or BITE IT, sheesh people go study a wild horse herd for a few weeks

littlecelticpony · 07-10-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyldterv

If you're going to use the Natural route, you don't beat it at all, you KICK IT or BITE IT, sheesh people go study a wild horse herd for a few weeks

No, Karyn, it's natural beating. The way stallions bully the herd. GET WITH IT.

arablvr1 · 07-10-2007, 03:48 PM

Wow! This is a popular topic! I have to agree with a lot of people here. I think NH is good for some people, not good for others. I went to see Parelli when they were in Madison. Thank God I didn't pay $65 for a ticket. They didn't teach you anything. If you wanted to learn something, spend LOTS of money for their stuff. That's what I felt was going on. And Linda's horse had a serious itch problem, so he kept lifting his leg for her to scratch his butt. Okay, it was funny at first, but she couldn't even talk, she was so distracted. Eventually, she had to get up on him so she wouldn't have to scratch him anymore. What happened to telling a horse no?!?!?!

I personally love Clinton too. If anyone has watched Parelli, maybe they have seen this too. Do all the horses ALWAYS have their ears back and look like they want to kick their owners into the next galaxy? They don't look respectful at all. But, some of the things they do are pretty cool. I am just the type of person that wants a horse to listen to me, NOW. I love my horses, but I don't ever want them taking advantage of me. Maybe I'm way off. I will just do what works for me and my mare.

kizmet · 07-10-2007, 04:18 PM

my goodness this topics been here forever!!!

Anyway thought i would add my bit!

I think it is a fantastic thing for us all that horse training methods are constantly being explored and discovered. we can never know to much. you cannot condem someone for finding one way works best for them.

To be honest you should develop and beleive in your own methods and influences. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY keep any opinions which may rubbish anothers to ourselves. Unless of course we beleive them to be cruel which i do not think anyone on this forum is guilt of.

WE ARE ALL JUST TRYING OUR BEST!!

SO TO BE CLEAR I LOVE HORSEMANSHIP IN ALL ITS FORMS.

sirius-dressage · 07-10-2007, 05:09 PM

I think the concept of learning to "speak hrose" if you will, is a great one. A lot of the stuff I do with my horse is "natural" in theory. I use pressure and release to get him working in his own space and to teach him to understand what I am asking...but, that being said, I mix that with traditional methods to get a more desired effect.

Nothing worse than going horse shopping and getting there to find the mare you want to look at is 9 years old and has been "trained" by a natural horseman "trainer"...

I couldn't have cared less how this woman expects her horse to work. The mare's supposed to come to her when the woman turns her back, is supposed to longe like a pro because it's all about pressure...but when I get there and it takes this woman 15 minutes to catch this mare because the horse is like "yeah right, screw you..." I find I get irritated really fast. I mean business when I get out there with my horses and if I want that horse caught I walk up and put a halter on it. They know what that means, and it was sure a heck of a lot more effective than this woman's method. Then I get on this well schooled horse and...wow. I've been on 3 year olds with more balance. She was all over the place, weaving around the arena like she was drunk, no balance through her corners, no bend in this horse's neck, working constantly on the forehand or rather...just shuffling along.

All the boasting in the world about how "natural" the method is can't make up for poor overall training. The fact was she was trying to sell this mare to me, and at 8 years old this is what this mare knows? Barely how to trot in a straight line and has never brought her butt under her at any time? To me that's a ruined horse under the disguise of being "naturally" trained. I am proud that I have used more traditional methods on my horse so that by age 5 he was working in a long frame, bending and doing lateral work, and more importantly, going in a straight line. That is a gift you can give a horse, because when the day comes to sell, which one has the better chance at finding a home that is willing to spend the money to buy a good horse...and therefore, has less of a chance of continuing to decrease in value to the point of ending up in an auction. Yes, I'd rather give my horse an education and make it work correctly in a way that is purposeful so that if that horse has to prove itself to be worth some money in order to be more appealing to a wider range of owners...than to have a horse that is uneducated and green and is not good for anything other than a trail horse or a companion.

Not saying there's anything wrong with buying a horse strictly for trail...but how many horses are there like that that are a dime a dozen? I'd rather my horse was worth his weight in gold and training and have a good shot and not continuing to be sold off because he does a job and does it well...than to fool myself into thinking that natural is the best way because it's not traditional.

What I don't like is when people claim to be a "natural horsemanship trainer" like this woman was claiming to be...but the horse they produce is way below mediocre. By believing they are doing the natural thing they think this horse is performing well and is worth a lot and is just a diamond in the rough. But what I see is that a lot of these people just follow these methods blindly without really developing their own sense of understanding and not REALLY having the skill or instinct that any of the top trainers have. I have developed my own way of training that mixes what I have learned from all over the continent and from books, videos, trainers, and my own horses. I don't just follow some guy's method because he wrote it down and said "do this and you will get this".

Some of the silliest things I've seen were novices trying to do natural hrosemanship. This one lady at my barn had this Thoroughbred who se did a lot of natural stuff with...she would be wandering around him with her carrot stick all day long and you could tell the horse was just bored out of his mind. She just didn't have the natural ability to be able to "communicate" with him and therefore ended up annoying him more than anything. And he never improved...he continued to buck and stomp and canter off the wrong lead and chanrge the jumps...he never got any better regardless of all this effort and "natural" training.

My $.02...take it or leave it.

JBandRio · 07-10-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arablvr1

I went to see Parelli when they were in Madison. Thank God I didn't pay $65 for a ticket. They didn't teach you anything.

Their tours are not intended to teach you anything

They are intended to show you what is possible.

Quote:

If you wanted to learn something, spend LOTS of money for their stuff. That's what I felt was going on.

Not so different from the commercials that say Gatorade will give "it" to you, that Nike will make you a better athlete, that Special K will get you into that Yellow Polkadotted Bikini

Quote:

If anyone has watched Parelli, maybe they have seen this too. Do all the horses ALWAYS have their ears back and look like they want to kick their owners into the next galaxy? They don't look respectful at all.

I don't see pinned ears, I see ears concentrating. Watch horses in a herd - when things are going on, when the alpha is teaching a respect lesson, you don't see the more submissive horse with his ears all perked up. When the lesson is over the ears come up.

Quote:

I am just the type of person that wants a horse to listen to me, NOW. I love my horses, but I don't ever want them taking advantage of me. Maybe I'm way off.

Fortunately for you, that's exactly what NH is all about

LGGL · 07-10-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote:

The way stallions bully the herd.

If a stallion is bullying anyone it's only with the alpha mares permission.

wyldterv · 07-10-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirius-dressage

I...than to have a horse that is uneducated and green and is not good for anything other than a trail horse or a companion..

I'd like to point out that a good SAFE trail horse is NOT uneducated NOR green and are worth a small fortune! Being uneducated and green makes a horse an open slate that either someone wants to take to a trained mount or that is goingto be hard to sell... BUT it is NOT going to make a great companion NOR a great trail horse unless you DO put a lot of work into it! Unless you're a REALLY experienced rider, taking a really green, uneducated horse out on the trails around here can get you killed.

arablvr1 · 07-10-2007, 05:33 PM

So, you pay $65 to go see them and learn nothing. Just see what's possible. Sorry, that's dumb. They should explain what's going on, what they are doing, and why they are doing it. Back to Clinton, he explains things he is doing, and why he does it. When I go to something like that I want to learn! And I don't see concentration. I see irritation. A horse concentrating on its handler either has one ear cocked toward them, or both ears are forward and they are looking intently at the handler waiting for a cue. I'm not here to start a fight. I just wanted to say what I think of that particular event. I have to say that Pat and Linda were entertaining, but I wanted to learn. I was disappointed.

07-10-2007, 05:09 PM	#566
sirius-dressage Senior Member+ Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 2,829 Images: 85 Blog Entries: 1	I think the concept of learning to "speak hrose" if you will, is a great one. A lot of the stuff I do with my horse is "natural" in theory. I use pressure and release to get him working in his own space and to teach him to understand what I am asking...but, that being said, I mix that with traditional methods to get a more desired effect. Nothing worse than going horse shopping and getting there to find the mare you want to look at is 9 years old and has been "trained" by a natural horseman "trainer"... I couldn't have cared less how this woman expects her horse to work. The mare's supposed to come to her when the woman turns her back, is supposed to longe like a pro because it's all about pressure...but when I get there and it takes this woman 15 minutes to catch this mare because the horse is like "yeah right, screw you..." I find I get irritated really fast. I mean business when I get out there with my horses and if I want that horse caught I walk up and put a halter on it. They know what that means, and it was sure a heck of a lot more effective than this woman's method. Then I get on this well schooled horse and...wow. I've been on 3 year olds with more balance. She was all over the place, weaving around the arena like she was drunk, no balance through her corners, no bend in this horse's neck, working constantly on the forehand or rather...just shuffling along. All the boasting in the world about how "natural" the method is can't make up for poor overall training. The fact was she was trying to sell this mare to me, and at 8 years old this is what this mare knows? Barely how to trot in a straight line and has never brought her butt under her at any time? To me that's a ruined horse under the disguise of being "naturally" trained. I am proud that I have used more traditional methods on my horse so that by age 5 he was working in a long frame, bending and doing lateral work, and more importantly, going in a straight line. That is a gift you can give a horse, because when the day comes to sell, which one has the better chance at finding a home that is willing to spend the money to buy a good horse...and therefore, has less of a chance of continuing to decrease in value to the point of ending up in an auction. Yes, I'd rather give my horse an education and make it work correctly in a way that is purposeful so that if that horse has to prove itself to be worth some money in order to be more appealing to a wider range of owners...than to have a horse that is uneducated and green and is not good for anything other than a trail horse or a companion. Not saying there's anything wrong with buying a horse strictly for trail...but how many horses are there like that that are a dime a dozen? I'd rather my horse was worth his weight in gold and training and have a good shot and not continuing to be sold off because he does a job and does it well...than to fool myself into thinking that natural is the best way because it's not traditional. What I don't like is when people claim to be a "natural horsemanship trainer" like this woman was claiming to be...but the horse they produce is way below mediocre. By believing they are doing the natural thing they think this horse is performing well and is worth a lot and is just a diamond in the rough. But what I see is that a lot of these people just follow these methods blindly without really developing their own sense of understanding and not REALLY having the skill or instinct that any of the top trainers have. I have developed my own way of training that mixes what I have learned from all over the continent and from books, videos, trainers, and my own horses. I don't just follow some guy's method because he wrote it down and said "do this and you will get this". Some of the silliest things I've seen were novices trying to do natural hrosemanship. This one lady at my barn had this Thoroughbred who se did a lot of natural stuff with...she would be wandering around him with her carrot stick all day long and you could tell the horse was just bored out of his mind. She just didn't have the natural ability to be able to "communicate" with him and therefore ended up annoying him more than anything. And he never improved...he continued to buck and stomp and canter off the wrong lead and chanrge the jumps...he never got any better regardless of all this effort and "natural" training. My $.02...take it or leave it. __________________ Oliver July1994 - July 18, 2008 You will always be loved.

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07-10-2007, 03:48 PM	#564
arablvr1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: WI Posts: 379 Images: 23	Wow! This is a popular topic! I have to agree with a lot of people here. I think NH is good for some people, not good for others. I went to see Parelli when they were in Madison. Thank God I didn't pay $65 for a ticket. They didn't teach you anything. If you wanted to learn something, spend LOTS of money for their stuff. That's what I felt was going on. And Linda's horse had a serious itch problem, so he kept lifting his leg for her to scratch his butt. Okay, it was funny at first, but she couldn't even talk, she was so distracted. Eventually, she had to get up on him so she wouldn't have to scratch him anymore. What happened to telling a horse no?!?!?! I personally love Clinton too. If anyone has watched Parelli, maybe they have seen this too. Do all the horses ALWAYS have their ears back and look like they want to kick their owners into the next galaxy? They don't look respectful at all. But, some of the things they do are pretty cool. I am just the type of person that wants a horse to listen to me, NOW. I love my horses, but I don't ever want them taking advantage of me. Maybe I'm way off. I will just do what works for me and my mare.

07-10-2007, 04:18 PM	#565
kizmet Senior Member+ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: scotland Posts: 864 Images: 63	my goodness this topics been here forever!!! Anyway thought i would add my bit! I think it is a fantastic thing for us all that horse training methods are constantly being explored and discovered. we can never know to much. you cannot condem someone for finding one way works best for them. To be honest you should develop and beleive in your own methods and influences. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY keep any opinions which may rubbish anothers to ourselves. Unless of course we beleive them to be cruel which i do not think anyone on this forum is guilt of. WE ARE ALL JUST TRYING OUR BEST!! SO TO BE CLEAR I LOVE HORSEMANSHIP IN ALL ITS FORMS.

07-10-2007, 05:33 PM	#570
arablvr1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: WI Posts: 379 Images: 23	So, you pay $65 to go see them and learn nothing. Just see what's possible. Sorry, that's dumb. They should explain what's going on, what they are doing, and why they are doing it. Back to Clinton, he explains things he is doing, and why he does it. When I go to something like that I want to learn! And I don't see concentration. I see irritation. A horse concentrating on its handler either has one ear cocked toward them, or both ears are forward and they are looking intently at the handler waiting for a cue. I'm not here to start a fight. I just wanted to say what I think of that particular event. I have to say that Pat and Linda were entertaining, but I wanted to learn. I was disappointed.