[littlecelticpony]

You don't see natural horsemen SMASHING our dressage, cross country, jumping, western pleasure do you?

I just wanted to say YES. "Smashing" is an equine-community wide thing.

Like I said, a NH pusher once punched me in the arm for how I did things with my event horse. I've heard NH grumble about my dressage because it wasn't something they would do with their horses.

On the same hand, I've heard lots of H/J riders smashing on WP horses and riders, much to my dismay.

It's not something NH "people" do or don't do. It's something ALL equine people have done, are doing, or will do in the future. Just how the equine world is.

[Crazy4Apps]

OK so the people smashing NH,what exactly are you smashing?And same for the people smashing other types of training.It's not the training putting down other methods it's the people doing the training are narrow minded,and think only there way works.I like and do NH,but I've found that some horses dont respond to it as well,so I try other methods.For me I use what ever works,as long as it is'nt beating the horse.

[MidnightStarr]

Originally Posted by Jess!

AMEN!!!! I hate natural horsemanship too.

hahah diddo!!!!


dont even get me started on it hahah!!

in my opinion i thinks its all a load of c.rap

[MaggieSue]

And Fear is a bad tool because? I want all my stallions to be very afraid that I will cut their balls off with a very blunt knife if they do not behave!

My point exactly...there's a fine line between respect and fear-when my horses are 'afraid of the monster over there' and decide they would rather run me over-they need to think twice about the 'invisible' monster, and the monster that will actually cause them harm if they run over her!
Intimidation...isn't that also what the head mare does in the pasture? She intimidates the others to become head mare then to keep that place? So really...wouldn't fear and intimidation actually be part of natural horsemanship??????

[PaintedRocket]

I can't believe this thread has gone on as long as it has..

Reading the added.. I dont know.. 10pages or so.. seems like everyone has put in their opinions/experience and so forth and now this thread is going in circles now that every part of this subject that can be covers has been..

[doublebarr]

LOL PR! Hey, if you beat a dead horse long enough, will it get up?

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

My point exactly...there's a fine line between respect and fear-when my horses are 'afraid of the monster over there' and decide they would rather run me over-they need to think twice about the 'invisible' monster, and the monster that will actually cause them harm if they run over her!

This becomes a battle of "is that thing more scary, or do I respect/fear the other one more?"

Intimidation...isn't that also what the head mare does in the pasture? She intimidates the others to become head mare then to keep that place? So really...wouldn't fear and intimidation actually be part of natural horsemanship??????

Intimidation is based on fear. Horses don't intimidate each other for positions, they play the same games that NH plays - give to pressure. He who backs down first loses. It's different from intimidation. The instigation of a hierarchy game is different from a playing game, but the end result is the same - someone moved/backed off first. The more times, and with most horses, a particular horse wins those games, particularly with the important things like food and water, the higher up the pole they go. In these situations, those lower on the pole aren't afraid of those higher up - they still buddy up, play with each other, stand nose to tail swishing flies, eat the same blades of grass. In the hiearchy situation, the higher horse doesn't usually move the lower horse off "just because" - those are the bullies, and yes, bullies are feared. I have 3 horses - lowest man (ironically the biggest horse), the alpha mare, and the bully gelding. Alpha mare and low man get along great - graze side by side, rub flies off each other, pull fly masks off each other. Alpha and bully get along, mostly, because bully knows alpha will kick his **** around IF she wanted to, but they don't buddy up. Bully and low man don't buddy up at all, and it's no wonder because bully will sometimes just go after low man, out of his way, and run him off. Thankfully there aren't a lot of bully horses (in the horse relationships).

The leaders of the herds hold those positions because of respect, not fear. NH does not use fear/intimidation, it uses exactly the same principles that horses already apply to each other.

[Banat]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

And Fear is a bad tool because? I want all my stallions to be very afraid that I will cut their balls off with a very blunt knife if they do not behave!

Fear is a bad tool because a horses natural (ooooooo that dirrrrtty word ) reaction to fear is flight or fight. If a horse is afraid of something and they cannot escape (flight) their second option is fight. Not something I'm interested in doing with any horse. It's so much easier to just teach them using conditioned response.

[Crazy4Apps]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

This becomes a battle of "is that thing more scary, or do I respect/fear the other one more?"

Intimidation is based on fear. Horses don't intimidate each other for positions, they play the same games that NH plays - give to pressure. He who backs down first loses. It's different from intimidation. The instigation of a hierarchy game is different from a playing game, but the end result is the same - someone moved/backed off first. The more times, and with most horses, a particular horse wins those games, particularly with the important things like food and water, the higher up the pole they go. In these situations, those lower on the pole aren't afraid of those higher up - they still buddy up, play with each other, stand nose to tail swishing flies, eat the same blades of grass. In the hiearchy situation, the higher horse doesn't usually move the lower horse off "just because" - those are the bullies, and yes, bullies are feared. I have 3 horses - lowest man (ironically the biggest horse), the alpha mare, and the bully gelding. Alpha mare and low man get along great - graze side by side, rub flies off each other, pull fly masks off each other. Alpha and bully get along, mostly, because bully knows alpha will kick his **** around IF she wanted to, but they don't buddy up. Bully and low man don't buddy up at all, and it's no wonder because bully will sometimes just go after low man, out of his way, and run him off. Thankfully there aren't a lot of bully horses (in the horse relationships).

The leaders of the herds hold those positions because of respect, not fear. NH does not use fear/intimidation, it uses exactly the same principles that horses already apply to each other.

Amen!Couldnt have said it better!

[CatandMinot]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Intimidation is based on fear. Horses don't intimidate each other for positions, they play the same games that NH plays - give to pressure. He who backs down first loses. It's different from intimidation. The instigation of a hierarchy game is different from a playing game, but the end result is the same - someone moved/backed off first. The more times, and with most horses, a particular horse wins those games, particularly with the important things like food and water, the higher up the pole they go. In these situations, those lower on the pole aren't afraid of those higher up - they still buddy up, play with each other, stand nose to tail swishing flies, eat the same blades of grass. In the hierarchy situation, the higher horse doesn't usually move the lower horse off "just because" - those are the bullies, and yes, bullies are feared. I have 3 horses - lowest man (ironically the biggest horse), the alpha mare, and the bully gelding. Alpha mare and low man get along great - graze side by side, rub flies off each other, pull fly masks off each other. Alpha and bully get along, mostly, because bully knows alpha will kick his **** around IF she wanted to, but they don't buddy up. Bully and low man don't buddy up at all, and it's no wonder because bully will sometimes just go after low man, out of his way, and run him off. Thankfully there aren't a lot of bully horses (in the horse relationships).

The leaders of the herds hold those positions because of respect, not fear. NH does not use fear/intimidation, it uses exactly the same principles that horses already apply to each other.

absolutely correct-- also couldn't have said it better.