[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

Very well put. The other thing we often forget is horses all have a sense of humor and do not treat all humans equally.

LOL that is for certain!

[shakti21]

Really though, until you study religions that worship nature (and I mean study not just read about) you cannot truly understand what are "natural" things. I thought I knew before, but my studies proved me very wrong and opened up a sense of listening I never knew.

I have two friends that are both of nature worshipping religions (two different ones) and have practiced them all their lives. They have a reasoning with horses to make any NH trainer tip their hat. Its weird and kind of scarry to watch. But there is more to horsemanship than pressure release. Pressure release is horse training. I mean I saw them teach horses things without applying any pressure. I guess its too bad they don't want to be clinicians.

[wyldterv]

shakit, I'd like to see your friends at work sometime.... seriously... I'll bet dollars to donuts that they're just so wonderful at reading subtle body language they can apply the minutest amount of pressure to get what they're asking for because their timing is impeccable (and there are very few people that can read the subtlest of cues consistently and respond in kind so they ARE to be watched and to learn things from!). If you sit and watch horses interact for hours at at time, days on end, you'll see that horses are 100% about applying pressure and allow release. Even a pinned ear is a very subtle form of pressure warning that if you don't want a kick to follow you'll back off

[SweetSavannah]

SweetSavannah
it is a very narrow minded, shallow, simplistic way of shunning a method based solely on one or two idiots who don't know what they are doing!

where in any NH method, DVD or advertisment do they say that their way is the only TRUE way to connect with a horse? where?!

pigeon-holing!

SweetSavannah
but this does not give you the right to slam a whole discipline!!!

oh yeah, cos once again EVERY NH-er LOVES to slam the disciplines of others

pigeon-holing!

is there any singular argument that you can offer 'against' NH methods that are NOT based around one or two idiots slanging off other people's horsemanship abilities? i feel as though you are basing your argument solely on the bottom-feeders of the NH group which is not the foundation of a solid argument.

why... with the bottom feeders of the so-labelled NON-NH group all we'd have to do is look at the animal cruelty acts to see where they go wrong...

the point i am trying to make is that there are idiots in every discipline, there are people who screw up horses every day. this doesn't mean that dressage is bad cos there are people who strap their horse's head to its chest, this doesn't mean that showjumping is bad because there are those who will put tacks in their horse's boots and nails on jump rails to make them careful, this doesn't mean that every tennessee walking show should be banned because there are people who will put caustic ointments and sore their horse's hooves just to win a ribbon!

you can't judge every discipline by its worst part.

[showjumper]

B L I M E Y

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

Please don't tell me you're comparing this to my horse kicking. That was a totally different thing JB. And if you had any sense, you'd know that.

I would SO love to know how it's not comparable. The horse is thinking about doing something. It's either something you don't want him to do, or it's something you do want him to do. If it's the latter, you let him go ahead and do it, and if it's something you were trying to get him to do, you praise him when he does it. If it's the former, you...what? Apparently you let the thought process finish and then reprimand as you deem appropriate for the crime. If you see a child aiming a rock at you, you certainly don't let him carry through with his actions. No different.

This is getting to the point of ridiculous. I don't fall for all the 'right brain/left brain' predator stuff either, the horses learn from repetition, same as we do. Few horses have been in the wild, so they are no longer prey to anything. Natural horsemanship is anything but-unless you turn a horse loose on the prairie...it won't be natural.

You're kidding me, right? Just because a horse is domesticated means he's no longer thinking like a prey animal that he IS? Ever? He no longer thinks "OMG what's IN THOSE BUSHES!!!!" when the cat jumps out? He no longer thinks "EEEEEEEEEEE dog running after me, see ya!!!" Sorry, you're wrong. You can train a human-safe response into them, for sure, that's the whole reason we have been able to domesticate them, but you cannot take the prey mentality out of them.

How they learn - repetition - has nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with the fact that they are or are not a prey animal. They do learn by repetition, just like you do and just like dogs and cats and iguanas.

If I take your point of view, then domesticated dogs and cats no longer ever act like the predator creatures they ARE, and we shouldn't expect any more baby bunny/mouse/deer/chimpunk/HUMAN killings? Cool, I like that.

[Showrider]

I COMPLETELY agree. Finally someone on here with some common sense.


With any horse, you need to be the stallion of the herd. There's a fine line between abuse and discipline, but in no way was what you did wrong.

People need to realize that horses don't see us as some amazing God who they shall bow down to. When we are working with a horse, we become their herd.

Horses in a herd may challenge the lead stallion or mare occasionally, but the majority of the time every horse is behaving immaculately (sp?) under their ruler (lead stally or mare).

You are the pilot, the head stallion. Sometimes it is necessary to push a horse back to his place in the herd.

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by Showrider

I COMPLETELY agree. Finally someone on here with some common sense.


With any horse, you need to be the stallion of the herd. There's a fine line between abuse and discipline, but in no way was what you did wrong.

Umm.....can I correct you just a bit?

Stallions don't run the herd. MARES do.

You need to be the head mare. Stallions are only around at the will of the lead mare. SHE and ONLY SHE says which horse stays, and goes. She will run a stud out of her herd in a heart beat if he is annoying enough and continues to pester her off season. And a mare will take a stallion down if not down right kill him if he thinks he is going to take that "lead" position......you find in many animal social circles, the female rules all.

Stallions are around for breeding, and during breeding season, they go around to see who is in heat. They do nothing beyond that. They help protect the herd, but the MARE is the one leading. Even the top dawg stud in the herd looks to her in the instance of something going wrong.

everything else you said was great!!

[k6lsp]

I think today's methods are set so its creator can profit from it...my grandpa was my mentor and the ranch my training facility...I did a bit of every thing...cut...reard...jumps...river crossing...polo (out the ranch ofcourse...but I practice during normal live in the ranch)...ETC

Than came the Airforce and I became a Jet/helicopter Jockey...stil a saddle but in a flying horse...!

Get him/her used to yielding to your commands is a must (NEVER GO INTO A BATTLE WITH A HORSE -NEVER GO TO MAKING HIM/HER PUSH THROUGH A FEAR)...one should do lots of lunging (short and long line as I do), sending him (at the end of the line) and bringing him back while you stand in one spot. Practice sending him into a trailer or the stall, through gates or around a tree half way, stop him and have him come back. Do a lot of action and movement. Play games with him and make it fun always. End your sessions on a positive note every time. Do not feed him treats from your hand (Teaches him/her how to bit and lose respect from us). Let your love be the big carrot at the feeder pan. Keep praise appropriate and do not over input anything (Limt your wacking to 3 levels only - 1st hit mild / 2nd hit a bit more force / 3rd hit a nice wack with a dressage wip or any stick will do). Remember your horse is not wrong or bad, he is afraid pure and simple.

Just a old cowby's opinion...!

May God Bless yous trails...!

[LGGL]

Remember MR ED....... "a horse is a horse..."

A horse is not a dog,cat, pet, a child or a human. Loosing sight of that is usually what causes us humans problems with horses. Most of the NH "movement" is basically getting us humans to understand that a horse already knows how to do it all. It's focus is on getting us to communicate with our horses in a methods they understand. The biggest failure in any horse training is attaching human emotions and feelings upon our horses. Natural Horsemanship is leaning to understand the true "nature" of our horse.