[MaggieSue]

I'm sorry you wouldn't have her around, because she is the sweetest, kindest, smartest mare who deserves better than what she had. I think you should stay away from abused horses then, because I don't think you truly get it about a horse who is obviously fearful about their personal safety.

I didn't say her, I said a horse LIKE her-one that I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around-and it sounded like you were just accepting the fact that she was like that-not trying to work with it. I've worked at the track, I've worked with track horses-very few get the treatment yours did, I'm sorry for horses that are treated that way because it does show ignorance of that trainer! As far as staying away from abused horses! You make me laugh! You have no idea what I've done to help many abused horses come around and be nice horses. Again JB, you don't know me-you really need to stop making assumptions. One horse at the track that came to my trainer was very mean-her ears were constantly back-always trying to bite. I wanted to work on her but the trainer was afraid I'd get hurt. After a few months of working with his other horses (doing massage therapy), he decided that I could keep myself safe. So he allowed me to work on her with his wife handling her. I went in her stall and did some much needed bodywork on this horse. I was able to go back in the next time by myself and work on her. After that-I was the ONLY person that could walk up to her, and her keep her ears up!!

Did I not say I was working on her? I would love to know how you would deal with a very sensitive (mentally and physically) mare who was handled very badly in her track life, VERY badly.

What would I do??
I would start out with massage therapy because it does a few things, first it helps the horse realize that what you are doing is feeling good-not bad, it helps the horse to learn to trust you that you won't hurt them. Then I would do some basic groundwork-including some discipline when needed. Notice I didn't say to beat the horse! Many times horses like this don't have solid boundaries so they are always afraid-if they KNOW it's ok to do this, but not ok to do this (using maybe a slight tap of the whip at first), then they have no reason to be afraid. Alot of praise and working slowly around them, encouraging them to do things you already know they can do-so they will do the right thing. I worked with several horses (one in particular was 'trained' by a parelli person that totally screwed her up) that have had 'issues'. So don't make me laugh saying I shouldn't work with them.

So, let's see, you want a horse to know it's wrong to refuse a jump, so you set up a refusal, then what, beat him so he knows it was wrong?

Right here, you sound just like a 'true NHer'...always talking about beating a horse if they don't do something-it makes me sick! And the reason this thread started in the first place!! No, you don't beat them, and you don't 'set them up' for this-you teach them from the start, but there ARE times that you can't 'get around' dangerous behavior-this is not dangerous behavior-this is a training problem!!!

No! You deal with his thinking about kicking when you see it happening!

JB, you must be good if you can 'see' thoughts! So I should have disciplined him 'before' he kicked me??

All horses are not created equal. It's fairly apparent you don't get the prey mentality of a horse.

I guess you're right, 20yrs of owning horses, 10yrs working with a top vet, and handling horses for him-7years massage therapy/4 years healing touch for animals, working at the track, etc. I have NO IDEA WHAT A HORSE THINKS.

Yep, they will all try you about something, at some point, no disagreement there. I think there are far better ways of handling then things than setting them up for failure.

AGAIN, I didn't 'set him up' (again, just like and NHer repeating false things until they become truth in their minds), I did my regular routine of feeding, I had no idea when he was going to kick, he might've been thinking about it, then decided not to-but he went thru with it. He got disciplined for it, and he never did it again. I have a feeling my way worked! But I guess I know nothing about horses.

Well then they weren't good riders and they weren't good trainers, by your own words of "terrible", so that doesn't fly.

This is priceless...so even if they 'claim' to have studied NH (as the other poster talked about also)and they are bad trainers/riders-then in your opinion they WEREN'T doing NH??? Amazing. Yet, you will say how only NHer are the good riders/trainers-you will label ALL good ones that, yet none of the bad ones??

Ok the, tell me who was the first to "do" NH and when. And tell me how they were doing something different than "traditional" (and I'm not talking about using sticks). What "most people" think is beside the point

Oh good greif, must I post this one again????????????????? I can't tell you how many times I've posted what I see as different.
One of the main differences as I just said in my other post is the basics of training. I want my horse to learn to go around at a consistent gait, learn walk, trot and canter-and voice commands! If a NH horse decides to stop, you allow it, I don't (huge difference). I want my horse to stay in the gait I put them in until I tell them differently. This way when I start riding them, they stay in that gait-it's not their choice, it's mine. Sorry if that bothers you, but that's how it is in 'my world'. If they try to slow down, I just say nope, keep trotting-then about another half circle, I'll let them slow down, if I feel they were doing it because they were tired...but its MY IDEA, not theirs. When i'm riding, I want to know what's going to happen, not for the horse to go-gee, I think I want to stop here! EERRRTTTTTT-then I go flying!

How was it a last resort when he was warning you for a week and you NEVER gave him a chance to think "uh-oh, I shouldn't be thinking about kicking!"

JB, it was his thoughts-not his actions!!!! He in no way was turning his hind end at me, backing up to me, etc...HE WAS JUST THINKING IT-my trainer also felt he was thinking it. Maybe I have some communicating skills I don't know about-but don't you ever have a 'feeling' your horse is thinking something, then they do it?? You cannot correct a horse for something he's thinking!

Guess we'll agree to disagree on this.

For the 5th time...YOU WEREN'T THERE. What I did stopped his kicking, wouldn't you say that what I did worked? He had no marks, as a lunge whip doesn't leave any-they do not 'cut' the skin, it was more that I scared him than anything. After this, he was NOT afraid to come to me, he is always friendly. I don't know why you would argue with me with something that worked for MY horse.

Respect DOES play into this by way of training. It's either respect, or fear.

Yes, and you need to train that horse to NEVER KICK OR BITE ANYONE, EVER...not just you!
The horse that kicked me...after that I could allow my 3yr old great niece to lead him! and he's 16.3hh!! He is an awesome horse, trained extremely well, great ground manners, and it takes time and work. I rarely 'hit' my horses, but if they need it, they get it.
I have to go to work now.

[Banat]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

JB, you must be good if you can 'see' thoughts! So I should have disciplined him 'before' he kicked me??

I guess you're right, 20yrs of owning horses, 10yrs working with a top vet, and handling horses for him-7years massage therapy/4 years healing touch for animals, working at the track, etc. I have NO IDEA WHAT A HORSE THINKS.

AGAIN, I didn't 'set him up' (again, just like and NHer repeating false things until they become truth in their minds), I did my regular routine of feeding, I had no idea when he was going to kick, he might've been thinking about it, then decided not to-but he went thru with it. He got disciplined for it, and he never did it again. I have a feeling my way worked! But I guess I know nothing about horses.


JB, it was his thoughts-not his actions!!!! He in no way was turning his hind end at me, backing up to me, etc...HE WAS JUST THINKING IT-my trainer also felt he was thinking it. Maybe I have some communicating skills I don't know about-but don't you ever have a 'feeling' your horse is thinking something, then they do it?? You cannot correct a horse for something he's thinking!

So are you saying you can't tell when a horse is thinking about kicking you? After 20 years of being around horses? Or you can?

Are you also saying you don't reward or discourage thoughts? You could save you and your horse a lot of grief if you would. If you wait until they become actions you are constantly reacting to what your horse has already done, playing catch-up.
Rewarding or discouraging thoughts (being an active rider) makes training so much easier and quicker, and higher levels of performance possible.

[littlecelticpony]

JB, it was his thoughts-not his actions!!!! He in no way was turning his hind end at me, backing up to me, etc...HE WAS JUST THINKING IT-my trainer also felt he was thinking it. Maybe I have some communicating skills I don't know about-but don't you ever have a 'feeling' your horse is thinking something, then they do it?? You cannot correct a horse for something he's thinking!

Wait, I'm confused.
You said he was just thinking about kicking, so you snapped him with the whip, but then you said you can't correct a horse for something he's thinking.

Did I miss a part?

Wait, okay. I see he DID kick out at you. But this statement still confuses me. You said it was his thoughts, not his actions....

It's not "feeling." It's reading subtle body cues. That's how animals work. There's ALWAYS a chain of cues leading up to the ultimate correction to the animal/person that's irritating/invading their space.

If you saw tipped ears, tightening of the lips, slightly raised head as he watches you behind him, muscular tension, a clamped tail.....etc, etc, you're just reading his "leading" cues.

I HATE to keep bringing other animals into this, but dogs do it to. No normal dog just outright snaps at another dog with no warning sign. Watch sometime. You have to train your eye for it. Dog A is resting and dog B is starting to "invade" his personally defined bubble.
It starts with a hard stare, then a tightening of the lips, then a lifted lip, then a growl, then an air snap, THEN a "jaw bump."

Horses are the same way. They have signals. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what NH is entirely based on. Training yourself to recognise the horse's natural cues, and to start to react to them in a way the horse understands.

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by jgrinols

I admit I've gotten a bit frazzled reading these posts, so I'd like to have a little more information to understand different viewpoints. I haven't read throught the entire thread, as it's 48 pages on my pc and I don't have the energy to read through them all.

For those of you that have stated that you're not afraid to 'get after your horse, and hit kick or bite them' or (my favorite) 'teach them some respect' (sorry if no one said this, I just hear it a lot).... Could you please specify A. the situation you were in B. where you applied pressure C. how you applied pressure (hitting/slapping, how hard, with a crop or hand or what)

this would help me to understand, so if you wouldn't mind I would really appreciate knowing more info before making a judgement.

I am NH based, however, if a Head mare will do it, so will I.


That is about as NATURAL as you will EVER get.


Situation where I"ve had to nail a horse.

Take Sage. She tends to JUMP into my space. PUsh me over, etc. IN a herd dynamics, she'd get the snot kicked out of her till she moved far enough away, and possibly chased around till the higher horse knows that she UNDERSTANDS 100% that it was a no no to bump into them.

Taking that idea, applying it as a human, "Kicking" them with my feet really isn't a choice I choose. I use the whip, end of the lead, etc.

I swing it. If she is too close, she gets popped over and over and over again till she moves. When she is out of my space, she isn't getting popped anymore.....therefor, the issue is done. (I don't chase her till she gets the idea, like a herd mate would do)

She now understands, if she jumps into my space, it is a worse situation than the scary thing on the other side of her.

Things that put ME in danger or other humans, kicking, rearing, biting, striking are all NO NO's, regardless of the reason. That is not how I want my horse communicating with me. Regardless of the reason. So if hte horse kicks at me, he's going to get "kicked" right back until he moves off.

It is THE UNIVERSAL language out there, and as natural as anyone will ever get. This "work and rest" is not quite natural. Has a few basis's in it, but the core things.....establishing you as top dawg is the underlining of everything anyone will ever do or use in the future.

If a horse bites, I"m going to bite right back (open hand, right across that muzzle). If my hand stings, they shake their nose....it was hard enough. Not where I "Break" anything, but enough to make it known and allow them to be discouraged enough not to do it again. (once, twice, is about all I ever have to do with most cases)

Kicking, same thing. Whip/Lead rope as my leg. One pop right back, and swing till they move out (if they don't move, popping continues)....

I don't beat the snot, there is no magic number of how many to do. But enough to make the signal go HOME with each particular horse.

Some horses, hitting the dirt is enough to send the message home, others need a bit more encouragement.

Each horse as you get to know them, you will get to know the threshhold. Some a finger poke is all you ever have to do to drive the message home, others......they need a bit more reminding (however no one should welt/bloody/injure a horse ...that is going too far)





Going back and reading.....


One comment I want to mention......on setting up a situation.....

I've set up horses several times. I know what the trigger is, and working it on my terms, when I'm ready, and not "reacting" is much better than a 2ndary reaction any day!

You plan what you will do in the event things go one way, the other way, work out the scenario, and then apply it. Teaching the horse that This is how I will respond if you do this or that.....but if you respond like this other....things are much easier.


Much more planned, and the "anger factor" or you going to the hospital factor is down to a marginal risk...because you are now ready, since you know it SHOULD be happening.

You work the issue, work the horse through it (just like when you desensitize a horse to anything else....you set the horse up by going through THAT situation, show him what you WANT To happen, and discipline without anger/reaction response.....

A controlled set up will teach a horse much more than if you did get hurt, and you let your emotions take over a bit. and we all have been guilty once in our lifetime of our feelings at least TELLING us what it wants us to do to that beasty of a horse...regardless if we do it or not.


Same as you would do when workign a horse's feet for the first time. Enter and retreat...discipline what you don't want occurring, praise when the horse does right. We inadvertantly "set the horse up" for possible failure anytime we put the horse in a situation we KNOW they dislike. Like grabbing feet for the first time. We work on it, knowing there is an issue, work the horse through it, teach the horse what we want, punish what is dangerous and totally not wanted.

For example on feet picking up. If the horse pulls his foot from me. It is not punished, I just get it back. If hte horse KICKS< he gets punished. An open hand to the hip or shoulder, depending on what end I"m working. Then we go back to what we were doing before the horse kicked out.....working the horse a bit more before going back to the "kicking" stage....and eventually getting the horse to pick the feet up, holding them, without being kicked.

We all have done it if we've ever taught a baby or older horse to pick their feet up for hte first time or retrain it.

That same concept can be applied to many other areas of training. Bucking, rearing, striking, kicking, in saddle, out of saddle.

I know blister didn't like cows...we worked cows, set him up with them instead of ignoring the issue. And now we could go ride with cows without too much of an issue (he still dislikes them facing him last we were out with them)


So a Set up, properly, controlled, can be an excellent session to work on ONE issue at a time. Instead of when it occurs here and there, catching you unprepared or possibly where you CAN"T work on that issue at that moment in time.

Cause you can only work something when it presents itself. Knowing those situations and reactions, you can set up when you have time, in a safe environment where you can work the horse through it without having to be in a rush,.....much more condusive in my opinion....

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by littlecelticpony

Wait, I'm confused.
You said he was just thinking about kicking, so you snapped him with the whip, but then you said you can't correct a horse for something he's thinking.

Did I miss a part?

Wait, okay. I see he DID kick out at you. But this statement still confuses me. You said it was his thoughts, not his actions....

It's not "feeling." It's reading subtle body cues. That's how animals work. There's ALWAYS a chain of cues leading up to the ultimate correction to the animal/person that's irritating/invading their space.

If you saw tipped ears, tightening of the lips, slightly raised head as he watches you behind him, muscular tension, a clamped tail.....etc, etc, you're just reading his "leading" cues.

I HATE to keep bringing other animals into this, but dogs do it to. No normal dog just outright snaps at another dog with no warning sign. Watch sometime. You have to train your eye for it. Dog A is resting and dog B is starting to "invade" his personally defined bubble.
It starts with a hard stare, then a tightening of the lips, then a lifted lip, then a growl, then an air snap, THEN a "jaw bump."

Horses are the same way. They have signals. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what NH is entirely based on. Training yourself to recognise the horse's natural cues, and to start to react to them in a way the horse understands.

I think I know what you are seeing in the statements....

A horse that is thinking about kicking usually is throwing all the warning signs out. By disengaging the horse BEFORE it kicks, you derail the situation, and hopefully the horse learns without actually kicking, that it is not acceptable.

You don't punish the horse the same way though. Like I won't pop a horse for THINKING of biting me....but I'll get all huffy and derail those warnings (ear pinning and such) before he follows through. Once followed through, I'm going to follow through with my own threats that I gave out.

So popping the whip is like the herd mare kicking out saying "NOPE, I'm herd mare and I WILL follow through.....your move!"

Mare will kick the air, without chasing, as a warning as well that they are too close or their attitude is not proper.

Once given chase, I've watched a horse take another horse down, even after they gave in. Down to the gROUND and practically killed that horse it seemed. Not pretty. But it comes down to the core respect, he crossed the line, and the mare wanted to be sure that horse understands 100%, there is no discussion!!!

Whereas, we discuss way too much with the horse, give way too many chances for the horse to see his way above you in the pecking order.....and that is where most poeple have issues with their horse on a respect level.

Ok ...i'm starting to ramble.....

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by jgrinols

No I'm not speaking for NH, I don't practice a particular style and I've never heard of what the NH trainer's teach. I'm asking more for MY personal training style, which is more gentle, but to each their own.


Also, I don't believe in teaching respect. At all. Respect is something to earn. Just my two cents for now.

When you look in a horse herd, respect is not earned through love and devotion. It is TAKEN and EXPECTED. The one that is stronger and more demanding will be higher than those that aren't. Thsoe that aren't understand that and respect that "line" of hierarchy. Hierarchy is key and natural for a horse. One does not have to beat a horse to get it. But one must set themselves up to BE that unchallenged herd mare. You can walk into any of your herd dynamics, and they all, including the current lead mare, respect that position you hold without challenge. That is the "CORE" respect that most people look for. Everything else is 2ndary, and comes with time. This can be established and should be established when you first face your horse for the very first time. Love and devotion comes. But if they do not respect your position in the herd, you will continue to have problems, heartache, and possible injuries......

People who have kicking, biting, running over, etc issues do not have that top dawg position in their horse's mind. Their horse sees them as the same if not lower level. Or a higher one that CAN be challenged. That is not the position you want in your horse's mind.

A high horse can mingle with lower horses. On their terms. And that is how I personally see how we should be. We allow them to hang with us, just as they allow us to do the same, being so big and powerful.

One does not have to take the position of I"M IN CHARGE, LISTEN TO ME and be a bully to hold that position. But establishing it can get a bit difficult if you are not assertive....consistant....and willing to set that position and keep it......

We have modified that idea.....but as a whole, the "Core respect" of who is higher and who is lower, is the key to horses working with us as a whole.

Once a horse understands you are the leader, Trust follows because they EXPECT it from you. They look to you to know what to do. And from there, training to handle, ride, and such falls so much easier into place. Because they see you as their all powerful leader. One that should never be challenged, one that will protect them at all costs.....

That is the stance that I take with the horses I work and have an excellent relationships with.


Does that make a bit more sense on how some of us see the "respect" position? Cause I know there are several on here that have a similar view when they speak of "respect". They are speaking to the position in the herd that they have established. And that position should be respected enough not to ever be challenged.

[littlecelticpony]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

I think I know what you are seeing in the statements....

A horse that is thinking about kicking usually is throwing all the warning signs out. By disengaging the horse BEFORE it kicks, you derail the situation, and hopefully the horse learns without actually kicking, that it is not acceptable.

You don't punish the horse the same way though. Like I won't pop a horse for THINKING of biting me....but I'll get all huffy and derail those warnings (ear pinning and such) before he follows through. Once followed through, I'm going to follow through with my own threats that I gave out.

So popping the whip is like the herd mare kicking out saying "NOPE, I'm herd mare and I WILL follow through.....your move!"

Mare will kick the air, without chasing, as a warning as well that they are too close or their attitude is not proper.

Once given chase, I've watched a horse take another horse down, even after they gave in. Down to the gROUND and practically killed that horse it seemed. Not pretty. But it comes down to the core respect, he crossed the line, and the mare wanted to be sure that horse understands 100%, there is no discussion!!!

Whereas, we discuss way too much with the horse, give way too many chances for the horse to see his way above you in the pecking order.....and that is where most poeple have issues with their horse on a respect level.

Ok ...i'm starting to ramble.....

Right. Exactly. I think the wording was just confusing me.
I just thought I read someone punished for something that hadn't happened. But I think I just wasn't reading the post properly.

[littlecelticpony]

One does not have to take the position of I"M IN CHARGE, LISTEN TO ME and be a bully to hold that position. But establishing it can get a bit difficult if you are not assertive....consistant....and willing to set that position and keep it......

Right. Like I said before, it's the middle that has squabbles. They're trying to work their way up the ladder. Your leaders don't bully - ever. Anger and emotion is seen as a sign of weakness, in a leader or any other member of the social group.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

I didn't say her, I said a horse LIKE her-one that I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around-and it sounded like you were just accepting the fact that she was like that-not trying to work with it.

Sorry to say you're wrong on how I'm handling her. I work very hard with her nearly every day to build trust and confidence and to teach her that she does not need to react like a prey animal. She is a hot TB, a horse who would survive in the wild if left to her own devices because until shown otherwise, she WILL react out of self preservation. I don't walk on eggshells, I go out of my way to set up situations that get her nervous so that I can teach her how to react. I'll never be able to tell her "don't get upset, don't be nervous", because it's her nature to be like that. I CAN however teach her how to respond in a way that makes things safe for me and others around me. But if she's in the field with her buddies and someone were to suddenly run up behind her, yep, I daresay she WOULD kick, and I wouldn't blame her one bit.

Right here, you sound just like a 'true NHer'...always talking about beating a horse if they don't do something-it makes me sick! And the reason this thread started in the first place!! No, you don't beat them, and you don't 'set them up' for this-you teach them from the start, but there ARE times that you can't 'get around' dangerous behavior-this is not dangerous behavior-this is a training problem!!!

Well you sure set your horse up to kick at you by ignoring his signs for a week. I don't see how different this example is. What WOULD you do in this example?

JB, you must be good if you can 'see' thoughts! So I should have disciplined him 'before' he kicked me??

Well apparently he was sending out some sort of vibe because you yourself said you and the trainer felt he was thinking about kicking for a week. And absolutely, yes, as BW said, you should have diffused the situation before he acted out. It's not that difficult. But I'm sure you know that.

AGAIN, I didn't 'set him up' (again, just like and NHer repeating false things until they become truth in their minds), I did my regular routine of feeding, I had no idea when he was going to kick, he might've been thinking about it, then decided not to-but he went thru with it. He got disciplined for it, and he never did it again. I have a feeling my way worked! But I guess I know nothing about horses.

You didn't actively set him up, but you sure passively did. You DID know he was thinking about it. Maybe you "fell asleep" this time and didn't read that he was actually going to do it this time. But you had at least a week where you could have taken his intentions and told him right then "don't EVEN think that buster".

This is priceless...so even if they 'claim' to have studied NH (as the other poster talked about also)and they are bad trainers/riders-then in your opinion they WEREN'T doing NH??? Amazing. Yet, you will say how only NHer are the good riders/trainers-you will label ALL good ones that, yet none of the bad ones??

I think you're just looking for something to argue about here and not really paying attention to what I'm saying. No lesson in the world, traditional, Vaquero, NH, nh, whatever, can take someone who doesn't "get it" and turn them into a artist. There are people who follow a path but have no idea why they're following it and no idea what lays at the end, and really don't care, they just follow because someone else said it was a good path to take. That does not make them "good". It means they were following along without getting what they were doing. Take ANY discipline and the same thing applies. If you are a good rider, with a good relationship with your horse, and have a horse who is happy working for you, then you have employed good training methods, and those methods have their basis in the exact same things that nh does, and vice-versa. If you employ good methods of training and understand what you're doing and why, whether you call it NH or nh or traditional, you will create a happy, willing horse

One of the main differences as I just said in my other post is the basics of training. I want my horse to learn to go around at a consistent gait, learn walk, trot and canter-and voice commands! If a NH horse decides to stop, you allow it, I don't (huge difference).

This is just a different application of the same method: pressure and release. Not all NH methods do it the PNH way, as far as I know it's PNH-specific. Doesn't make it wrong. It ends up teaching the horse the same thing - maintain gait, maintain direction.

JB, it was his thoughts-not his actions!!!! He in no way was turning his hind end at me, backing up to me, etc...HE WAS JUST THINKING IT-my trainer also felt he was thinking it. Maybe I have some communicating skills I don't know about-but don't you ever have a 'feeling' your horse is thinking something, then they do it?? You cannot correct a horse for something he's thinking!

Yes, you can correct them for something they are thinking. It's not the same sort of discipline you'd use if they actually carried it out (biting or kicking), but you CAN correct it. A sharp voice is all that some horses need to be told "do NOT even think it".

What I did stopped his kicking, wouldn't you say that what I did worked? He had no marks, as a lunge whip doesn't leave any-they do not 'cut' the skin, it was more that I scared him than anything. After this, he was NOT afraid to come to me, he is always friendly. I don't know why you would argue with me with something that worked for MY horse.

It's not your actions with the lunge whip when he kicked that I'm arguing about - never said that. It's the fact that you let him think and think and think about it, knowing he was thinking about it, until he DID kick. That's the problem I have.

Yes, and you need to train that horse to NEVER KICK OR BITE ANYONE, EVER...not just you!

I'm surely not going about it the way you did, I'm not setting myself up to get kicked, no thanks.

The horse that kicked me...after that I could allow my 3yr old great niece to lead him! and he's 16.3hh!!

And what if she'd walked behind him in the week before he finally kicked at you? What then?

[Madamoiselle]

I'm going to pop in and pop out. In response to assuming the position of the lead horse, I have never, ever in my life been to a NH clinic-bought any carrot stick or video-but this I understand.

My horse is turned out in a herd of atleast twenty other ROWDY geldings that all line up at the gate when it's nearing feeding time. It's a BIG pasture that opens up into another grass pasture and goes around the barn-usually I can go in and avoid any of the other horses. But at feeding time they all want to be the first to go in for the night and get their dinner and they get ANXIOUS.

These are other boarders horses and I have never layed a finger on them-I don't have the authority nor would I ever think I had the authority. I have nearly been trampled before going into that pasture when they all came galloping over-they definitely did NOT see me as the "predator". When I was leading my horse out another horse would come over and try and pick on him and he'd bolt off to get out of the way.

Now I can get in and out with no problems-I do NOT wait for a horse to get too close and I'm definitely not waiting more me or my horse to get kicked, I swing my sweatshirt, my leadrope, growl, stomp my feet and basically threaten them that if they mess with me then I'm not going to play nice. I don't have the authority to hit a horse for correctional purposes-but I do have the authority and would give anyone license to defend themselves if my horse was getting dangerous.

So, yes, I do believe in establishing yourself as the leader in these situations. I will pop my horse-no more than needed, he's sensitive, and usually does not need more than a growl or a light slap to get the point across. There's no grudges in our relationship, he does not try to kick, bite, comes when I call, nickers when I see him. When riding, I don't believe in brute strength-nor do I believe a slap is brute strength-common sense rules corrections for me. The horse wants to go forward, okay, we're going to go backwards then for a few minutes. He wants to balk, okay we're going to go and sidepass in the opposite direction until he understands that what I says goes.

I think it starts as a mutual respect. So many people don't respect their horses for hauling their butt around-tolerating the mistakes they make, tiring themselves because their rider wants to go for one more run-they don't establish the life the horse deserves or lock him up in a stall without any turnout so he doesn't get dirty or god forbid scratched-they just expect, expect, expect, without giving anything. A lead mare watches out for the herd, finds food, leads them from danger-it's a this for that relationship.

So basically, if you want a horse to respect you, then by all means, set up the pecking order. That's certainly required to be safe, but the horse won't accept-just submit, if you give nothing in return(a release, a reward, expect too much, put your showing goals above your horses health.) I'm not saying that the horse knows that you pay for that fancy boarding facility he's staying at or anything-or that you're the one who sacrificed your savings to get that extra comfy blanket for him. I'm talking about fair treatment, horses groom eachother - if they haul us around when we're not riding well, then we can provide them with some comfort.

That was kind of a rant too..I just see too much of both extremes-too much babytalking and spoiling, and too much correction and punishment.

I also believe that there is "no magic number"-what works for one horse may not work for the next.