[MaggieSue]

In my mind, he'd finally had enough of feeling uneasy about you back there and decided to do something about it.

JB, I walked behind him all the time, he was done eating, he saw me back there-he wanted to know what would happen if he kicked-plain and simple. I was there...you were not.

Horses don't "love" you the way you're making it sound. The respect those who deserve respect, and some will try protect those that they respect. I can walk behind my WB gelding all day long with probably just about anything and he'd never think about kicking - not his nature, he never feels that threatened by a human. But if I were push things with the OTTB mare, she would kick (she's never offered because I've never set her up for failure as I work hard to never make her feel like she has no choice) and it would be my fault for not dealing with things properly beforehand and putting her in that defensive position

I disagree...sometimes they have to know consequences JB. What if a child were to go into my pasture without my knowledge? Would I be worried-not really, because my horses know to stay out of 'everyones' space, and to NEVER pick up their legs without being asked for them. It doesn't matter who is there! It has more to do with training, discipline, than it does respect for that person-anyone can handle my horses...they can because they are TRAINED that way. Again, just like kids, any child that has been raised and disciplined will behave themselves in most situations! They don't have to KNOW the adult or the people there-they have been taught how to behave...same way with the horses. My neighbor comes over all the time with his 2 little girls to feed them...they horses don't know him or the girls, they don't do groundwork with them-they feed them carrots! But they respect their space because it's been taught to them. As far as your mare, sounds to me like she needs some work! I wouldn't have a horse I had to be so careful around.

Goal 1 is to not set the horse up to kick or bite you. This means reading him because nearly always they DO let you know it's crossing their mind, and you yourself said you'd been feeling like he was going to for a week. Goal 2 is THEN to administer proper reprimands if they do one of those things, but if you get here without doing your best at Goal 1, then you let the horse down.

And I see it this way, if I am always working to not set him up for failure, how will he learn? Why shouldn't he know what's right and what's wrong. What if I knew he was thinking about kicking...so I made sure I stayed away from his hind end-then one day someone else would feed-they wouldn't know about it, and walk behind him and 'wham' they would be kicked! Now, you'll say, they shouldn't be back there-where I say, my horse needs to keep his feet on the ground at all times unless I ask for them!

Why put yourself, or anyone else who might be working around the horse, in a position to finally be able to bite or kick? There is a lot you can do to prevent that, including teaching the horse to never ever EVER invade your space. If he knows not to invade your space, he won't be within striking distance.

He didn't invade my space, I walked behind him-which I can do with all my horses, and so can everyone else. They will ALL try you! No matter what you do...you just have to decide how you will handle it-this is how I handled it, and it never happened again. Seems to me I did the right thing!

Much as you try to deny it, good riding IS nh (does putting it in lowercase letters help?) and nh is good horsemanship. Period

Good riding is just good riding...I've seen terrible riders claiming to be doing nh, and terrible trainers claiming to be doing nh. So again, I must disagree. NH only came on the scene recently-'Traditional' riding (as I like to call it) has been around forever. Most poeple consider NH as the newer, rope halter, nicey nice stuff-very few think of it as any kind of discipline-which in fact ALL good horsemanship has.

[jgrinols]

Maggie Sue, I completely understand where you are coming from. I think that I understand your training methods, they just wouldn't work on my horses, as mine probably wouldn't work on yours. I don't disagree with using physical force, I just use it in different ways and as a last resort in most situations. Honestly, I'm too exhausted to post a really long reply (long day). So I'll just agree to disagree and remove myself from this thread.

Has anyone heard of Franklin Levinson? I just watched some of his training and it was awesome! He is a riot to listen to: "I don't call it a whip, because a whip is used for whipping. I use a wand, because wands are magical" haha, what a character.

[SweetSavannah]

can everyone stop pigeon-holing the people who do natural horsemanship!!

we are not all namby-pamby horsemen or terrible riders/trainers who stuff up horses!!!!

i'm not linda parelli... far from it... but just having followed the principles and methods of natural horsemanship has strengthened my ability to teach a horse something, and enriched my knowledge of how horses learn from experiences.

just because you have seen a few so called NH people out there making an awful display of horsemanship and bragging about their 'skills' does not mean that the others who practice NH are all tarred with the same brush.

it is a very narrow minded, shallow, simplistic way of shunning a method based solely on one or two idiots who don't know what they are doing!

and you can say "well we use these sorts of methods every day... its been around for decades yada yada" well parelli, NH, Monty Roberts etc have made that knowledge that has been around for decades available to the entire horse world. and they have done it up in a format that is easy to follow and understand. so good for them... i bet there's a lot of people who wish they thought of doing that!

but this does not give you the right to slam a whole discipline!!!

just because its been commercialised doesnt mean it isnt an effective horsemanship method.

[MaggieSue]

it is a very narrow minded, shallow, simplistic way of shunning a method based solely on one or two idiots who don't know what they are doing!

I think I'll use this quote everytime I see something from an NHer stating that they're way is the only way to get 'true' connection with your horse! It's been said here SS...many times! So this goes right back at the NHers also.

but this does not give you the right to slam a whole discipline!!!

Again...right back at the NHer's here that love to do it to those that don't follow a DVD trainer!

Maggie Sue, I completely understand where you are coming from. I think that I understand your training methods, they just wouldn't work on my horses

You'd be surprised! As long as you are consistent and fair with your horses, most any training will work on them!

I don't disagree with using physical force, I just use it in different ways and as a last resort in most situations

I also use it as a last resort, so I don't know what you're implying here. Waiting until thehorse kicked at me-it was the last resort! And I must ask, how do you use it 'in a different way'?? You either 'whack em on the butt' or you don't!
I get so tired of all the symantics here about whether or not people whack their horses, or the 'intent' of what they're doing that supposedly changes everything! That's why I like CA...he says 'why did I whack the horse?? because I could-she was in my space'. As compared to 'I'm not hitting the horse, I'm using a phase 4 pressure on her' when clearly you ARE hitting the horse.

"I don't call it a whip, because a whip is used for whipping. I use a wand, because wands are magical" haha, what a character.

Again, symantics-I use whips-I don't use them TO whip-it's a name! If someone said...get me that wand over there, most horse people would say, what wand???? And a 'wand' can also be used for 'whipping'-anything resembling a whip (a stick you find in the yard)can be used for whipping. It all depends on the education of the person holding it.

and you can say "well we use these sorts of methods every day... its been around for decades yada yada" well parelli, NH, Monty Roberts etc have made that knowledge that has been around for decades available to the entire horse world. and they have done it up in a format that is easy to follow and understand. so good for them... i bet there's a lot of people who wish they thought of doing that!

Yep, sure do-I wish I could become rich off of selling dvd's! It HAS been around, most of what YOU do I have been doing...just in a slightly different way-so now you want to call what I've been doing NH? There are many things in NH I don't do-because I don't agree with it-that is why I call what I do 'Traditional' training. I don't start mine without lunging them, teaching them many things, then I put them in a bit-I don't ride with rope halters because I can teach them so much more in a snaffle! I also drive them before I ever get on them-many, many differences. I also refuse to do all the lateral flexion-I don't want my horses neck to be like a rubber band, there's no reason-EVER-when I'm riding for my horses nose to be at my knee! I would never buy a horse that was under saddle in 3 hrs either. Just not enough solid basic groundwork-the horse was rushed and there are too many holes.

[cd_horton]

Why must we all label ourselves and others as NH followers or non-NH followers...ones skill and technique as a horseman/woman can only be found in one location...THEIR HORSE....when I see a really nice horse willingly working for its handler...the last thing that comes to my mind is..."wonder if that is a NH trained horse or not?"

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

JB, I walked behind him all the time, he was done eating, he saw me back there-he wanted to know what would happen if he kicked-plain and simple. I was there...you were not.

Guess we'll agree to disagree on this.

sometimes they have to know consequences JB. What if a child were to go into my pasture without my knowledge?

ANY horse in ANY situation can hurt ANY person, big or tall, if that person doesn't know horses and goes into the middle of a field with horses, no matter how well behaved they are. Horses are horses, they do horse things, like start "fights" with each other, and if a human who doesn't know how to deal with that situation is in the wrong place, then bad things happen. That's why they are called an attractive nuisance and you can unfortunately be held liable if that situation happens. It has nothing to do with how well they know to stay out of a human's space and know not to kick or bite.

It has more to do with training, discipline, than it does respect for that person-anyone can handle my horses...they can because they are TRAINED that way.

Respect DOES play into this by way of training. It's either respect, or fear.

Again, just like kids, any child that has been raised and disciplined will behave themselves in most situations! They don't have to KNOW the adult or the people there-they have been taught how to behave...same way with the horses.

Not a very valid comparison, as you're talking about predators vs prey. The entire wiring of the brain is very different.

As far as your mare, sounds to me like she needs some work! I wouldn't have a horse I had to be so careful around.

Did I not say I was working on her? I would love to know how you would deal with a very sensitive (mentally and physically) mare who was handled very badly in her track life, VERY badly. When I got her she looked like she might have a heart attack right there when I raised my hand to rub her face. She'd turn her head around to her side when I was brushing her then FLING her head back around as if she truly expected to be slapped around. She used to BOLT in and out of stall doors. If she felt like she did anything wrong she'd fling her head up, the whites of her eyes would show all around, and she'd scoot backwards. I'm sorry you wouldn't have her around, because she is the sweetest, kindest, smartest mare who deserves better than what she had. I think you should stay away from abused horses then, because I don't think you truly get it about a horse who is obviously fearful about their personal safety.

And I see it this way, if I am always working to not set him up for failure, how will he learn? Why shouldn't he know what's right and what's wrong.

So, let's see, you want a horse to know it's wrong to refuse a jump, so you set up a refusal, then what, beat him so he knows it was wrong?

What if I knew he was thinking about kicking...so I made sure I stayed away from his hind end-then one day someone else would feed-they wouldn't know about it, and walk behind him and 'wham' they would be kicked! Now, you'll say, they shouldn't be back there-where I say, my horse needs to keep his feet on the ground at all times unless I ask for them!

No! You deal with his thinking about kicking when you see it happening! Why would you put yourself in a situation where he finally did kick and it breaks your leg, or punches you in the chest? What if, to use your own example, a child had walked behind him one day and he DID kick, and it came out that you KNEW he'd been thinking about doing something like that for a couple of days? Do you also let them think about biting until the day they do?

He didn't invade my space, I walked behind him-which I can do with all my horses, and so can everyone else.

All horses are not created equal. It's fairly apparent you don't get the prey mentality of a horse. Some do not care what you do around them from day one - walk behind, in front, under them, they don't care at all. Some are VERY protective of their space and show it. Some try to deal with it until one day they can't.

They will ALL try you! No matter what you do...you just have to decide how you will handle it-this is how I handled it, and it never happened again. Seems to me I did the right thing!

Yep, they will all try you about something, at some point, no disagreement there. I think there are far better ways of handling then things than setting them up for failure.

Good riding is just good riding...I've seen terrible riders claiming to be doing nh, and terrible trainers claiming to be doing nh.

Well then they weren't good riders and they weren't good trainers, by your own words of "terrible", so that doesn't fly.

So again, I must disagree. NH only came on the scene recently

Ok the, tell me who was the first to "do" NH and when. And tell me how they were doing something different than "traditional" (and I'm not talking about using sticks). What "most people" think is beside the point

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

I also use it as a last resort, so I don't know what you're implying here. Waiting until thehorse kicked at me-it was the last resort!

How was it a last resort when he was warning you for a week and you NEVER gave him a chance to think "uh-oh, I shouldn't be thinking about kicking!"

[jgrinols]

I think you may have missed the meaning of that quote just a bit. It was Franklin Levinson holding a dressage crop but talking about how you're intent influences your training. It had nothing to do with name recognition, more about word association. Whip has a negative connotation, whereas wand has a more positive connotation.

I'll use physical force by jabbing a horse on the flat part of their upper lip within three seconds of a bite. That's as far as I've needed to use force.

Also, I can't imagine your horse would feel a bucket brush his legs and think of it as a time to kick you- he was reacting to something brushing his legs, probably in his blind spot as you were walking behind him. Were you carrying a lunge whip with you when this happened, or were you just nearby one and very quick to react?

As my horse was abused, using physical force with him would not work. It would only scare him.

It's when you become too comfortable with a horse and forget his natural instincts that you are most likely to be hurt.

Again, to each his own.

[Haas Horse Farm]

Originally Posted by PaintedPNH

I am all for NH. It's my thing but have you seen me come through as blatantly as the woman you are talking about? I hope not.

I have been taught to offer advice, not push it. I do a lot of "Well it might work better if you try..."
I tried SO many different things with Ringo and nothing worked until we sent him to Parelli and he is now a different horse. Like JB said...its not NH you dont like its the people who see one show on cable and think they know EVERYTHING. This is my biggest pet peeve.

I however know where to draw the line. I do practice some "non-NH" methods such as martingales and what not but only when I need them. I'm not a fan of gadgets and I will not use them to cover up a problem. When explaining things to new horse owners listening to Pat has gotten me into the habit of comparing what the horse is thinking to a human situation which really seems to help.

They arent ALL bad. It's just that some people make NH look sissy...and its not.

And FYI it's not "just wiggling a lead rope" I HATE HATE HATE when people say that it drives me UP the walls.

BTW How do you know what Parelli did to fix your horse? I have a friend that worked for Parelli and all their training is NOT smack free.

[Lissette]

Old thread, but still sexyifying

I am all for the 2 warning cues, but will inflict a bit of pain if i have to..