I HATE "Natural" Horsemanship!!!!

rjpaints · 07-05-2007, 03:10 PM

Try this for aNatural Horsemanship we looked at a horse that wouldnt "lead" unless you pointed your finger. It took all of a half hour to get her saddled due to all of the games she had to play with her. We said sorry I will deal with my own horse before this I mean come on wiggle your finger to back! I aint getting off just to wiggle my finger. Nor am I going to point the way!
We use John Lyons origional round pen reasoning and love it.

The Parelli trained horses around here are the most dangerous and unpredictable horses we have seen. I had 2 yr old studs with far better manners than their 10 yr old geldings. Their answer he hasnt moved onto the next step. I want a riding horse in less than 20 years please.

Any way JMO!

JBandRio · 07-05-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjpaints

The Parelli trained horses around here are the most dangerous and unpredictable horses we have seen. I had 2 yr old studs with far better manners than their 10 yr old geldings. Their answer he hasnt moved onto the next step.

The answer is - the people aren't ready for the next step, and it's no wonder, they can't get the baby steps down first

I truly feel sorry for these horses, horses who's people don't know up from down, change how they do things, and the horse gets so confused and frazzled it's no wonder they turn "dangerous" - they say "enough is enough, it's time to start protecting myself!"

littlecelticpony · 07-05-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Hopefully you don't now attribute that to the PNH program

Or heck, to any particular NH program. She was a loon, period, who just happened to be a Parelli-ite

Goodness, no.

I was just sharing the story due to the fact that she claimed it was "so incredibly unnatural horsemanship."

I've done a few Parelli things with my old gelding. I loved rope halters. I flung the carrot stick around to get him desensitized....not that he needed it. He was like "mom, I'm so tired of this try to scare me game."

I think it's a great tool to have in someone's tool box. I know that it's always an option, for any horse. I'm just not the type to follow one thing religiously. I pull good things from EVERY trainer out there.

jgrinols · 07-05-2007, 07:03 PM

I admit I've gotten a bit frazzled reading these posts, so I'd like to have a little more information to understand different viewpoints. I haven't read throught the entire thread, as it's 48 pages on my pc and I don't have the energy to read through them all.

For those of you that have stated that you're not afraid to 'get after your horse, and hit kick or bite them' or (my favorite) 'teach them some respect' (sorry if no one said this, I just hear it a lot).... Could you please specify A. the situation you were in B. where you applied pressure C. how you applied pressure (hitting/slapping, how hard, with a crop or hand or what)

this would help me to understand, so if you wouldn't mind I would really appreciate knowing more info before making a judgement.

MaggieSue · 07-05-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

For those of you that have stated that you're not afraid to 'get after your horse, and hit kick or bite them' or (my favorite) 'teach them some respect' (sorry if no one said this, I just hear it a lot).... Could you please specify A. the situation you were in B. where you applied pressure C. how you applied pressure (hitting/slapping, how hard, with a crop or hand or what

A. situation-my horse kicked at me, even though he knew it was me walking behind him-I had 'felt' for about a week (my trainer did too)that he was 'considering' kicking...just to see what would happen! He kicked...I beat his butt with a lunge whip! I cracked him about 4 times with it-and said, let's do this NOW! Bring it on! so he put his butt towards me again-and again, he got it cracked! This happened about 3 times, then he stood by the wall and dropped his head. I walked up to him and told him, never again to kick me or anyone! He never has...that was 12 years ago.
If you're asking this because you think that NH is a 'kinder, gentler way' think again! They also get after the horses, I've seen it, why do you think there are leather poppers on the end of the leads and the ropes?? I know in PNH it's called a phase 4! Yes, you must teach them respect-unless you want to die young. It's not about just whipping the horse either, it's about their intent (my horses intent was to kick me), and how much pressure it takes to get the point across. (with mine, it took 3 butt whippings) But he's the first one in the pasture to come running up to me to be ridden!

jgrinols · 07-05-2007, 07:25 PM

No I'm not speaking for NH, I don't practice a particular style and I've never heard of what the NH trainer's teach. I'm asking more for MY personal training style, which is more gentle, but to each their own.

Also, I don't believe in teaching respect. At all. Respect is something to earn. Just my two cents for now.

Queenie_Lover01 · 07-05-2007, 07:28 PM

I can relate. My neighbor has had his horses since I was 11. I started learning off of the internet about them so I could interact with his horses. He didn't know that I would go into his pastures and see his horses. I got my first horse when I was 13. I am 14 now, but anyway he would tell me all the time that his horses listen to him and ****. So one day I watched him ride. He took one of his horses and there is a dry riverbed in his pasture and he went by it and the horse jumped over it. Then the horse was like out of control in the back pasture. I was afraid for him but I waited to see what he did. He just rode it out. He didn't even try to stop him! So I went to his barn and sat down inside and waited for him to come back. He was like Gosh did you see that? I was just like yeah and he goes now that is the right way to ride. Did you see how I stayed on? Well I was just like Oh Wow! So he still thinks he is a better rider than me!

jgrinols · 07-05-2007, 07:52 PM

MaggieSue, I know everyone hates the holier than thou trainer types but that really isn't the intent of this post. The intent is to try to understand different training types. So here's my training point of view, if you're offended then feel free to ignore it, again, really not my intent to offend anyone.

All of this is just my opinion:
The first thing about that situation is that you're analyzing it from a human perspective. Horses don't think like humans, they never do something "just to see what would happen". I'm thinking that there was some other factor that may have been going on there, that you might not even have noticed. It's unfortunate that you got kicked, but I still feel there may have been another reason behind it. Horses will always have natural instincts, and it may just have been reacting with one of them. I would have done tons of groundwork with him, mostly turning on the forehand, or pivoting. Any exercise that teaches him to move his butt away from you and that you are in control of that.

Another horse might have done something very similar to what you did with the lunge whip. Here's where it gets a bit contradictory... the idea behind NH (I think) and most other training types, is that you are thought of as another horse. The only problem with this is that, while you can try as you might, you are still a natural predator to this horse. That is where I disagree with some types of physical force. I don't think that a horse would be hurt physically by them, but I think that it takes trust away from the relationship and makes you appear again as more of a predator. Some horses (I've seen first hand as it happened to mine as well as 10 others at my barn), can be emotionally scarred from actions like this.

You must have a very good bond with your horse, as he runs up to you in the pasture.

JBandRio · 07-06-2007, 04:53 AM

Interesting situation Maggie, one that could be looked at a few ways.

I do agree that horses likely don't do something "just to see what happens". They do something because they already expect a response, good or bad, or they are doing what they feel will protect themselves. IMHO if a horse was giving signs for a week that he might kick, then you set the horse up for failure, something one should strive to ALWAYS avoid. It's like enticing a dog to bite you, then punishing him. Now if it was a foal who doesn't yet understand horse/human relationships and does the foal thing of being all nice and enjoying a good wither scratch, then wheels around and kicks as if you were another horse, then he would need a reprimand which may very well include the use of a whip across his cute little hiney - same as another horse would have likely gone after him and bitten the snot out of his butt.

Nobody who "gets" NH, whether they call it that or not, will say that they never lay a hand on their horse. Of course they do - the point of "natural horsemanship" is to communicate with the horse in horse language. This means that if the horse kicks or bites or strikes, there are consequences to pay, whether it's from the human or the horse. The deal with "NH" folks saying "we don't hit horses" comes from the common abuse of punishment for something the horse doesn't understand - not getting a lead change, being afraid of the tarp by the ring, putting the crosstie in his mouth, pawing, stupid things like that.

Likewise, when teaching the horse something, it's not all nicey-nice, never escalate anything. Horses escalate their aids all the time - look, ears pinned, tail swish, come at the other horse (or you!) with teeth bared, and then they kick or bite. If you choose to ignore early signals, then something has to be done to make you pay attention. There's a BIG difference between teaching a horse how to give to pressure on his poll by 1) asking nicely, increasing pressure by 2, increasing again,and they perhaps using a hoof pick to really get the point across that yes, maybe he really should seek to relieve that discomfort, and 2) asking one, then giving a big YANK on the halter when he doesn't respond. The former is of a NH style, the latter is of a moron who doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it.

BettyBootsy · 07-06-2007, 05:01 AM

I didn't read all the post but heres my 2 sense

I can't stand some of the people that think they represent NH as in Parelli. Personally can't stand PP himself BUT that doesn't mean I don't use NH! What he calls the 7 games we as trainers have done to some extent for years but he just made up games and named it and kind of added some stuff more so to create it for the city folk that don't know anything about horses. Money market I guess! As far as public arenas you always see some idiot that knows everything just ignore it and smile. I don't hit on my horses myself much but there is a time and place for everything. As far as you backing issues have you looked back at the basics in your laterial and vertical flexion and stiffness in the body. I found it's sometimes easier to train backing from the ground first then you can also have someone on the ground help ya out in the beginning. Hand back him up inclines to build up the rear muscles a bit. I use the fence too but it doesn't work on all and some are more head strong and stuborn then others. Another issue ya might check out is how well he uses his hips. Lots of the time the issue is they aren't sure of there foot placement and the know how of getting the rear up under them as there backing. Try more hip work and half halts. Just trying to throw some ideas out there for ya. Good luck and have fun!

07-06-2007, 04:53 AM	#479
JBandRio Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NC Posts: 21,678 Images: 132 Blog Entries: 12	Interesting situation Maggie, one that could be looked at a few ways. I do agree that horses likely don't do something "just to see what happens". They do something because they already expect a response, good or bad, or they are doing what they feel will protect themselves. IMHO if a horse was giving signs for a week that he might kick, then you set the horse up for failure, something one should strive to ALWAYS avoid. It's like enticing a dog to bite you, then punishing him. Now if it was a foal who doesn't yet understand horse/human relationships and does the foal thing of being all nice and enjoying a good wither scratch, then wheels around and kicks as if you were another horse, then he would need a reprimand which may very well include the use of a whip across his cute little hiney - same as another horse would have likely gone after him and bitten the snot out of his butt. Nobody who "gets" NH, whether they call it that or not, will say that they never lay a hand on their horse. Of course they do - the point of "natural horsemanship" is to communicate with the horse in horse language. This means that if the horse kicks or bites or strikes, there are consequences to pay, whether it's from the human or the horse. The deal with "NH" folks saying "we don't hit horses" comes from the common abuse of punishment for something the horse doesn't understand - not getting a lead change, being afraid of the tarp by the ring, putting the crosstie in his mouth, pawing, stupid things like that. Likewise, when teaching the horse something, it's not all nicey-nice, never escalate anything. Horses escalate their aids all the time - look, ears pinned, tail swish, come at the other horse (or you!) with teeth bared, and then they kick or bite. If you choose to ignore early signals, then something has to be done to make you pay attention. There's a BIG difference between teaching a horse how to give to pressure on his poll by 1) asking nicely, increasing pressure by 2, increasing again,and they perhaps using a hoof pick to really get the point across that yes, maybe he really should seek to relieve that discomfort, and 2) asking one, then giving a big YANK on the halter when he doesn't respond. The former is of a NH style, the latter is of a moron who doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it. __________________ - JB Acres, owned and operated by Dynamite animals. - It's a wonder horses as a whole don't just kill us all and be done with their misery. - Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western (buck1173) - Rio feels good - he bounced an in-and-out

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07-05-2007, 03:10 PM	#471
rjpaints Full Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Peyton Colorado Posts: 240 Images: 10	Try this for aNatural Horsemanship we looked at a horse that wouldnt "lead" unless you pointed your finger. It took all of a half hour to get her saddled due to all of the games she had to play with her. We said sorry I will deal with my own horse before this I mean come on wiggle your finger to back! I aint getting off just to wiggle my finger. Nor am I going to point the way! We use John Lyons origional round pen reasoning and love it. The Parelli trained horses around here are the most dangerous and unpredictable horses we have seen. I had 2 yr old studs with far better manners than their 10 yr old geldings. Their answer he hasnt moved onto the next step. I want a riding horse in less than 20 years please. Any way JMO!

07-05-2007, 07:03 PM	#474
jgrinols Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 339 Images: 32	I admit I've gotten a bit frazzled reading these posts, so I'd like to have a little more information to understand different viewpoints. I haven't read throught the entire thread, as it's 48 pages on my pc and I don't have the energy to read through them all. For those of you that have stated that you're not afraid to 'get after your horse, and hit kick or bite them' or (my favorite) 'teach them some respect' (sorry if no one said this, I just hear it a lot).... Could you please specify A. the situation you were in B. where you applied pressure C. how you applied pressure (hitting/slapping, how hard, with a crop or hand or what) this would help me to understand, so if you wouldn't mind I would really appreciate knowing more info before making a judgement.

07-05-2007, 07:25 PM	#476
jgrinols Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 339 Images: 32	No I'm not speaking for NH, I don't practice a particular style and I've never heard of what the NH trainer's teach. I'm asking more for MY personal training style, which is more gentle, but to each their own. Also, I don't believe in teaching respect. At all. Respect is something to earn. Just my two cents for now.

07-05-2007, 07:28 PM	#477
Queenie_Lover01 Full Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anywhere with horses. Posts: 85 Images: 3 Blog Entries: 1	I can relate. My neighbor has had his horses since I was 11. I started learning off of the internet about them so I could interact with his horses. He didn't know that I would go into his pastures and see his horses. I got my first horse when I was 13. I am 14 now, but anyway he would tell me all the time that his horses listen to him and ****. So one day I watched him ride. He took one of his horses and there is a dry riverbed in his pasture and he went by it and the horse jumped over it. Then the horse was like out of control in the back pasture. I was afraid for him but I waited to see what he did. He just rode it out. He didn't even try to stop him! So I went to his barn and sat down inside and waited for him to come back. He was like Gosh did you see that? I was just like yeah and he goes now that is the right way to ride. Did you see how I stayed on? Well I was just like Oh Wow! So he still thinks he is a better rider than me!

07-05-2007, 07:52 PM	#478
jgrinols Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 339 Images: 32	MaggieSue, I know everyone hates the holier than thou trainer types but that really isn't the intent of this post. The intent is to try to understand different training types. So here's my training point of view, if you're offended then feel free to ignore it, again, really not my intent to offend anyone. All of this is just my opinion: The first thing about that situation is that you're analyzing it from a human perspective. Horses don't think like humans, they never do something "just to see what would happen". I'm thinking that there was some other factor that may have been going on there, that you might not even have noticed. It's unfortunate that you got kicked, but I still feel there may have been another reason behind it. Horses will always have natural instincts, and it may just have been reacting with one of them. I would have done tons of groundwork with him, mostly turning on the forehand, or pivoting. Any exercise that teaches him to move his butt away from you and that you are in control of that. Another horse might have done something very similar to what you did with the lunge whip. Here's where it gets a bit contradictory... the idea behind NH (I think) and most other training types, is that you are thought of as another horse. The only problem with this is that, while you can try as you might, you are still a natural predator to this horse. That is where I disagree with some types of physical force. I don't think that a horse would be hurt physically by them, but I think that it takes trust away from the relationship and makes you appear again as more of a predator. Some horses (I've seen first hand as it happened to mine as well as 10 others at my barn), can be emotionally scarred from actions like this. You must have a very good bond with your horse, as he runs up to you in the pasture.

07-06-2007, 05:01 AM	#480
BettyBootsy Senior Member+ Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,187 Images: 87	I didn't read all the post but heres my 2 sense I can't stand some of the people that think they represent NH as in Parelli. Personally can't stand PP himself BUT that doesn't mean I don't use NH! What he calls the 7 games we as trainers have done to some extent for years but he just made up games and named it and kind of added some stuff more so to create it for the city folk that don't know anything about horses. Money market I guess! As far as public arenas you always see some idiot that knows everything just ignore it and smile. I don't hit on my horses myself much but there is a time and place for everything. As far as you backing issues have you looked back at the basics in your laterial and vertical flexion and stiffness in the body. I found it's sometimes easier to train backing from the ground first then you can also have someone on the ground help ya out in the beginning. Hand back him up inclines to build up the rear muscles a bit. I use the fence too but it doesn't work on all and some are more head strong and stuborn then others. Another issue ya might check out is how well he uses his hips. Lots of the time the issue is they aren't sure of there foot placement and the know how of getting the rear up under them as there backing. Try more hip work and half halts. Just trying to throw some ideas out there for ya. Good luck and have fun!