[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

Right here JB, you are saying if you are not NH, you 'force and demand'. Must I post it again????

Nooooooooo, you aren't listening!!!!

Let me clarify one more time here. "Natural Horsemanship" is a label that defines a certain mentality and a loose methodology of how to train horses so that they becoming happy, willing partners. There are THOUSANDS of different individual techniques one can use to attain this. This means that good training falls into this category. No one says you have to associate the NH label to good training. No one says anyone is not a good trainer if one is not labeled NH. NO ONE has said that. No one has said *you* are not a good trainer because you do not call yourself a NH trainer. But the FACT remains that the techniques and ideals that you apply in training are eerily similar to those of the NH "masters". That does NOT mean you have to call yourself a NH trainer, so please please stop saying that you are being labeled as such. So, good NH training is good training, period - it's a conversation with the horse in ways he can understand. With me so far?

So, if you are NOT the above - good trainer, NH-labeled or not - then you are a bad trainer, and bad training nearly always involves forcing and demanding as the mainstay of the "training" technique. Or, you're an ineffective trainer which is a whole 'nother subject.

Am I clear this time? I'm still not quite sure how you made the leap that if you don't label yourself as a NH trainer that you are therefore, by default, a "force and demand" trainer

And yet, I see it differently! I see myself as a good common sense, one that will correct the horse, type of trainer/rider.

And *gasp* that's what the self-labeled NH trainers do, golly gee, how about that! A good NH trainer does a LOT of correction.

I see myself as neither of the above-yet YOU labeled me and many others as one or the other, in the post I quoted above.

See above.

No luck involved, I worked hard so I could pay her.

Oh good grief. Did I ever say "you were so lucky to have a good trainer handed to you on a silver platter"? No, I said you were lucky to have a good trainer. Of course I assumed you paid her. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good trainers around, regardless of whether they pay them or not. That was my point.

Yet you imply by 'force and demand' that those are the only ways to train a horse. Most people would call this a bad way to train, at least I would. I won't be labeled as such since I don't do either.

You assumed that was my implication - how, I'm still not sure. I have tried over the last 3 posts or so to say that was NOT my implication, regardless of how you took it, yet you still keep saying it was my intention to make that connection.

And my argument is that the NH training is 'traditional' training with a spin! The title 'Natural Horsemanship" came long after this way was in place-it's the few 'top dogs' that put their spin on it, created their ways, and now if you don't follow one of them-you are 'labeled' as being abusive-THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT-AND YOU SEALED THE DEAL WITH DOING IT IN YOUR POST SAYING THAT IF YOU DON'T DO NH YOU DO 'FORCE AND DEMAND'. IT'S NOT THAT BLACK AND WHITE. I'M DONE ARGUING NOW.

No, you have taken it upon yourself to assume that is what I meant because you choose not to be labeled a NH trainer (or apparently labeled anything else for that matter, perhaps I shall now call you "She Who Trains Horses And Apparently Does A Good Job"). All I and many other have ever said on these threads is exactly what you said - the principles of good NH training not new, but it recently has acquired a label. You seem to be the only one stuck on "if you aren't NH, you are abusive." Again, see my newest attempt at explaining this above.

[PaintedQH]

Does it really matter if it's NH, or not? Good training is good training and it doesn't matter what label it comes from. You can file away something from any trainer. Even if it's just what not to do.

[Mark2]

Originally Posted by PaintedQH

Does it really matter if it's NH, or not? Good training is good training and it doesn't matter what label it comes from. You can file away something from any trainer. Even if it's just what not to do.

Someone gave me some Mark Rashid tapes. It took me forever to get through them because I kept falling a sleep. I did learn a tip from those tapes though[looking for the slightest try from the horse].
Im a junkie when it comes to horse training books, tapes, dvds, etc. I also use a personal trainer but not near as much as I would like to because of the expense.
There is a lot of good info out there by natural and regular horse trainers.
I dont think I have ever watched a Tape or read a book yet and never learned something from it.
I think some people tend to throw the baby out with the bath water
There are certain things that I dont like about certain trainers. Sometimes its about their program. Other times its about the way they market themselves. But that doesnt mean that everything is bad.
Look at those old Ed Connell books. A lot of the stuff is outdated example the way he teaches spins, rollbacks, flcs, etc. But there is still a lot of great info in those books.
Look at Pat Parelli. I dont like the way he used to teach how to pick up the leads[horse shaped to the left to pick up the right lead} or the way he used to teach FLCs{pushing the horse off balance}. But still if you took a look at his course your still probable going to learn something. It isnt going to hurt someone if they look at what he is doing.
See here is the thing. There are a heck of a lot of horse owners out there that know very little. The main thing is for them to get into some type of a training program. Any type of training program is better than no training at all. Guys like PP have about the simplest, easyest type of program to follow.
Example I like Buck Brannaman as far as colt starting, but im thinking some people would have trouble following his program. So maybe these people would be better off with a simpler program.
The worst type of horse owner is the one who wont read a book, watch a DVD or use a personal trainer of any kind.

[Huntseat]

VERY well written! NH isn't bad, but there are those crazies out there who give it an awful reputation. I know I've gotten "yelled at" for showing aggression toward my mare when she has tried to bite me. When I got her she had NO ground manners or concept of personal space, so if she felt that something warranted a bite or a nip, she would do it. Of course I got after her, smacked her, bit her, growled at her, ran at her and waved my arms, or whatever else was convenient. Honestly, if she tried that to any higher-ranking herd member you can't even try to convince me that she wouldn't "hear" about it. The other horse would pin his ears flat back, kick, bite, or rear and strike her. She would NOT get away with it there, so why should I allow it?

IMO, when a horse is disobeying you when he/she clearly understands what you're asking, that is a HUGE sign of disrespect that needs to be punished. I think that you definitely did the right thing. How else are you supposed to get the message across otherwise after you've made two gentle, "asking" attempts? Sorry, but there are just some horses that won't respect you any more than they do a fly buzzing around their head no matter HOW much groundwork and trust-building exercises. That's one thing some people just don't seem to get. There are other *correct* methods to train a horse.

[Huntseat]

Oh wow.. I didn't realize that there were 45 pages to this.

[cd_horton]

It seems people get so defensive about their "style"....in my opionion results are what matter, much more than one single methodolgy. The end result we all want is a safe, willing, responsive and respectful horse. If you have every spent any time with reining trainers, they are always asking eachother about new ideas and fresh ways to do things....some of these guys are million dollar riders and trainers of multiple futurity champions, its clear they have a great method, but they are still hungry for new ideas and methods, which in my opinion is what make them so successfull with horses. They dont care if idea is Shawn Flarida, Tim Mcquay, Pat Parrelli or Jane Doe...if it works they will use it.

[*Buffy*]

Im not huge on "natural horsemanship" but this is my trainer Eagles Wing Ranch
and i believe in communications, homopath, osteopath, all for horses

[showjumper]

IN relation to the OP's post...

I do agree with you, to some extent.

I admire the principal of NH and what it stands for BUT accept (and respect) that it is not always something which I could incorporate within my training.

JB and Rio is right in that there is a select few holier than now people within the NH movement which, to be honest, we could do without.

But, at the end of the day it is all about respect and tollerance

[Andaletta]

i like the methods of NH and have followed them through with kelly and seen keen results.

What i dont like are pushy wannabe's who force an opinion on you about your horse sticking their ore in when you know what your doing and treating you like a child..

If you dont follow NH thats perfectly fine and thats completely entirely up to you. No one should be ranting at you that they are amazing at NH and trying to tell you what to do. Also what you should of pointed out to that person was that NH doesnt work with every horse!

[showjumper]

Originally Posted by Andaletta

i like the methods of NH and have followed them through with kelly and seen keen results.

What i dont like are pushy wannabe's who force an opinion on you about your horse sticking their ore in when you know what your doing and treating you like a child..

If you dont follow NH thats perfectly fine and thats completely entirely up to you. No one should be ranting at you that they are amazing at NH and trying to tell you what to do. Also what you should of pointed out to that person was that NH doesnt work with every horse!

aaahhhh, too true... Rachel suggested the 5 games with mollie, working wonders so far, that is not to say that i would adopt EVERYTHING within my training as i have already said, but yeh, respect and tollerance is the key xx