[seminolewind]

I think I like Endorphins4u2's method better

[TrainerGal]

Didn't read all the responses, so sorry if I'm duplicating hat someone has already said!
Natural horsemanship is wonderful, for me, it is the way to train.
However, that said, that does not mean that increasing your cues to the point of actually makeing it uncomfortable is wrong. Perfect example, I had a mustang mare we needed to load in a trailer. She was taught to lead, to drive forward off hip pressure, and was worked in "squeeze" situations. Now, when it came time to load, she didn't want to (can't blame her, thats common) So, when we asked her to drive her hip forward, she chose to ignore the cues, no fit, just ignored. She ignored the nice verbal cue, the gentle flopping of her driving line, the spinning, the wolloping the ground, and so we started moving the drive closer, sloser, and closer, until we were actually thwapping her rear, which annoyed her, but not enough to make her step even one foot, so the amount of force increased, until it became uncomfortable enough for her to look for a way to make it stop, which she knew the correct response to, and as she did, after a moment of what was not pretty on my behalf, she took a step into the trailer, thus releasing the uncomfortable pressure! TA DA! Starting over, she moved before we ever made contact with her body, and now loads on a vocal cue like a dream.
The point when hitting a horse becomes "wrong" IMO is when it's done out of anger or frustration, or the horse clearly does not understand why it is being hit. Horses who refuse to respect personal space, driving pressure, bit, kick, rear and strike out, and know a better response, sometimes require a handler increase the uncomfortable pressure until the horse gives the correct response.
Now, I hate natural horsemanship people who take things too far. You can call it a carrot stick, a dressage whip, or a long crop, they are interchangeable words and carrot stick is a gimmick. Hitting in some situations is wrong, in others is right, it is variable.
I had a woman one time who owned a very, very spoiled three year old arabian stud who attacked people with great intent upon doing damage in the pen, and roundpen. He picked you up, shook you, threw you, and then proceeded to stomp you. Darn right, I set up a spinning rope, and when he chose to walk into that, he got whacked, hard, a lot, until eating me left his mind. I got fired after the horse quiet attacking me, but he still attacked the owners, because they simply refused to be "mean" (I did not veiw this as mean) and ended up selling the horse. I have been yelled at as a natural horseman, for using a crop or spurs, which are tools! THey are not bad, the manner in which they are used or misused dictates whether they are bad.
In working with people, I have found there are folks who veiw natural horsemanship not as a tool, but as a cult, which is fine, to each their own, I choose not to deal with those people. I have gone to a lot of clinics, many put on by nh gurus, and I have seen them do things to horses that does not fit what they print in books or show in their videos, they increase the pressure as is necessary to do the job, the least amount of pressure is preffered, but some horses are cold tempered and can ignore polite requests, stronger is sometimes needed to teach the horse to give to soft cues.

[MaggieSue]

Funny, that sounds exactly how I would've handled the same situation 20years ago before the term 'natural horsemanship' was ever heard of. One thing that I really hate is when those that do 'nh' call it 'pressure' yet, will say that others are 'beating/whipping' their horse if not calling themselves a nh person. It's all in the wording. REally not much new here.

[skysthelimit]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

Funny, that sounds exactly how I would've handled the same situation 20years ago before the term 'natural horsemanship' was ever heard of. One thing that I really hate is when those that do 'nh' call it 'pressure' yet, will say that others are 'beating/whipping' their horse if not calling themselves a nh person. It's all in the wording. REally not much new here.

you're just jealous that you weren't the one who packaged it and sold it to the masses for millions of dollars 20 years ago.

Yeah, I see right through you. Haha.

(please don't hurt me. I is joking!)

[MaggieSue]

Unfortunately for me, I cannot rip people off like that. I actually have a conscience.

[K Riding Girl]

Originally Posted by MelissaH

I tried Natuarl horsemanship last weekend. I walked Amante into the round pen and he just stood, feet planted and did not want to move one muscle. he just stared at me wide eyed. Then I realized you all weren't talking about standing naked in the round pen holding a lunge whip.

ROFL! (too short)

[Cappyandme]

It used to be good when they where only a few TRUE horsemas out there. Now, there are sooo many you can't count them with both fingers and tows! My mum had a crazy chestnut, TB mare, who almost killed her three times. Mum was just about to put her down, but then saw Parelli. When I was born, mum had just started doing leavle 4. That is really hard and much easier now days. If mum was still doing parelli now days, she would be doing leval 7-8. The mare was still crazy on days when she wanted to be, but she would calm down but they would do something diffrent than what mum planed. I do Parelli on my pony, and he is much closer to me that his old owner who had him for 7 years. And I have only had him for 5 months!

[skysthelimit]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

Unfortunately for me, I cannot rip people off like that. I actually have a conscience.

oh, come on! Can't you hear the call of money?

[luvs2ride79]

Did you all realize that this thread is 275 pages long and was started in 2006? lol

[jedy]

MOST people do