[freedom32]

You can't buy common sense. Reading a book or watching a video does not a trainer make. There is no 'one true' way of doing anything.

I am always amused by these threads. No offense to anyone. Natural Horsemanship is not new, it goes back to Xenophon, and it is mostly good horse sense. I am willing to bet dimes to dollars that we have all used NH at one time or another, just now some folks have packaged it all up and put a price tag on their particular methods. You can't patent good horsemanship, and IMO when something reaches almost cult status some of the original message gets left by the wayside. There are thousands and thousands of good trainers out there, and not one of them does things in the exact same way, horses are individuals and you can't put a cookie cutter approach to training, you have a core approach and modify it as nessesary.

There is a huge differance in someone who offers help when needed, and one who preaches a sermon uninvited. One is wise, and one is in need of Beano

[lucky_pine]

Originally Posted by cowgirlnat

Well...if the only way my horse knows how to stop or turn is by me waving this hand or that or turning my shoulder one direction or the other...how will he know when I'm doing that on his back? It takes some direct pressure whether it be seat, leg, rein, or voice, or any combination of those.

You said it yourself right there. PRESSURE, seat leg. Combination of those.
If you're doing them correctly.

Hahah. See, told ya. We all have used NH.

[lucky_pine]

Shifting one way to get the horse to go one way is using the balance of the horse to turn himself. He's naturally moving under you to even out the pressure, to maintain proper balance. The whole point of NH.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

I don't see how wiggling your rope at your horse, or snapping the "parelli" stick is very natural.
But that's just me.

You're stuck on the tools again. It's not about the tools, it's about the communication. Speak to the horse in his language. The stick, whether it's a carrot stick, a dressage whip, and lunge wip, a twig, is an extension of your arm. If your horse is 12' away from you and not paying attention to you waiving your arm at his butt to get him to move, what do you do? Without any arm extension you have no way of upping the communication with his hind end. Same with a horse who doesn't want his hind legs touched. Are you going to risk life and limb to stick your hand down there? I don't think so You're going to use some extension of your arm, whether it's one of the above tools, or a broomstick with a glove tied to the end.

I should say Old Monty.
The whole shy boy thing. I've never seen him use a war bridle on shy boy, what he did out there was amazing.

It was being captured on television, of course he couldn't use a war bridle or anything like that

But what he did out in the wild, with a wild mustang, with Shy Boy, was natural. Was amazing to boot.

Yes, it was, but if he wasn't making $$ from it like he was, the huge publicity, the TV coverage, etc, I can pretty much guarantee he'd have taken quite a few shortcuts which probably would have involved things quite unnatural and not exactly un-cruel.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by cowgirlnat

why do they charge out the a** for you to learn them? The Parelli program starter kit is over $300. His bareback pad is close to that. Monty Robert's halter is like $40 and you can't even choose what color you want. Everything is so outrageously priced that the average person can't afford it. I understand having to cover costs, but these people are making millions.

People have the right to charge whatever the market will bear. Even if their intentions are good, if the market will buy a $40 halter, they're going to charge $40. One could say the same thing about cars and cat food and dog treats and horse blankets. The markup on ALL those things is astronomical, and aren't the horse/cat/dog folks making/selling these things because they're good for the animal?

I by $10 worth of rope and make 4-5 halters myself. I go to www.naturalhorsesupply.com and www.silverdollarqh.com and buy sticks and ropes for a good bit cheaper than PNH equipment. A stick can be made yourself with a fiberglass (CHEAP) rod, a piece of leather, and a piece of string, and slap a golf club rubber handle on it.

It's all about time vs worth. A rope bridle is not worth $65 to me as I can make it myself a LOT cheaper. But it might be well worth it to someone who doesn't have the desire to buy the materials and make it themself. There is nearly always a cheaper way to get something done

[CowGirlUp1833]

First off, read my siggy

Second, I haven't read any of this thread other then the OP....and I won't. LOL It doesn't matter....

My thought is this: As long as you aren't being abusive, your training methods are YOUR TRAINING METHODS, and unless you ASK, other people should keep thier mouths shut.


Now, everyone read my siggy again and take a deep breath... I imagine the 100+ posts I've not read above are heated. LOL

[cleveland13]

I like the idea of natural horsemanship, but I don't like the people who walk around saying that they're NH trainers, and that their way of doing NH is the best way to do it. Progressing the level of punishment (if you can really even call it that), like the backing up thing, is a natural horsemanship idea.

I went to an amazing clinic by Gawani Pony Boy where they were teaching horses to stand still while they were mounted. After working with the horses for almost 1/2 an hour to get them calm, they all tried to mount again. If the horse moved while the owner tried to mount, the horse was sent around in a circle a few times. Then the owner would try again. If the horse still moved, they got sent around in more circles. These weren't wimpy 20m walk circles. They were smallish really fast trot cricles, which made the horses work. If the horse misbehaved a thrid time, they were sent in more cricles, and then went back to the basic "calming down stage". It was really amazing to watch. I used a variation of the method on my own mare, and she has gotten much better with standing still while I mount.

^^This, I like.^^

What I don't like is Parelli. **Disclaimer: I'm not bashing anyone who does/likes Parelli, I'm just stating my opinion. Please don't jump on me.**

I understand how the games and other things would help a horse, but I just really don't like it. Several people at my barn have trained with Parelli, so I've gotten lots of Parelli speaches. First, in order to do Parelli properly, you have to get the Parelli halter, the Parelli lead rope, the Parelli manuals, the Parelli bareback pad, etc. This seems more like a money making gimmick than a training method. Also, there are all these restrictions on what horses in Parelli training can do depending on what levels they've completed. I think that, like all NH methods, there is some meritt to Parelli, I just haven't found it yet.

Here's a funny Parelli story that might make some people laugh...

There was a family at my barn (mother, father, daughter) who did Parelli. Each of them did Parelli with their horse to some extent. The mother's horse, Sooner, was the "most trained" if you can even call him that. She did Parelli with him for several years. She told everyone that he had mastered 3rd level Parelli. No one else at the barn knew too much about Parelli, so everyone believed her. One weekedn I offered to watch her horses while she was away. When I was reading the directions, she wrote that Sooner must be fed in the field because he does not tie (cross tie, tie to a fence, ground tie, anything...). I though that this was odd for a horse trained to 3rd level Parelli not to have to be cross tied, but I knew Parelli was a little funny with some things. Well, the family ended up moving to Idaho to live near the rich grandfather whose money they wanted, and to start a Lipizzaner/Pig/Lab breeding program (these people are really odd...). When the shippers came to pick up the horses, the barn owner was there to help load (the family had already moved). One of the people with the trailering company had been doing some Parelli with her horse (up to level 2), so when she found out Sooner was trained, she thought it might be a good idea to work with him a little before putting him on the trailer. They finally got the first horse loaded (she's mostly blind, so she doesn't like to get on trailers), so the lady started to work with Sooner. Within about 10min, she came back over to the barn owner and said "This horse isn't trained to 3rd level Parelli. His owner must be crazy." The lady wanted to try to load the other horse before Sooner, since Sooner didn't even want to go near the trailer. The barn owner said "Let me hold Sooner because he doesn't tie." The lady then said "If he doesn't tie, he can't even be a level one horse. This is insane!" After about an hour, they got all three horses loaded, and left, and that's the end of that.

I just think that this story is funny because the owner of the horses claims to be a Parelli trainer. She obviously doesn't even know what Parelli really is, since her horse is not even trained in it. Whenever I get approached by an NH "trainer" I just try to remeber this family, and don't let the whole thing get to me...

[Launa]

[quote=cleveland13]I
I went to an amazing clinic by Gawani Pony Boy where they were teaching horses to stand still while they were mounted. After working with the horses for almost 1/2 an hour to get them calm, they all tried to mount again. If the horse moved while the owner tried to mount, the horse was sent around in a circle a few times. Then the owner would try again. If the horse still moved, they got sent around in more circles. These weren't wimpy 20m walk circles. They were smallish really fast trot cricles, which made the horses work. If the horse misbehaved a thrid time, they were sent in more cricles, and then went back to the basic "calming down stage". It was really amazing to watch. I used a variation of the method on my own mare, and she has gotten much better with standing still while I mount.

I have read Gawani Pony Boy's book....Horse Follow Closely....and really enjoyed it.

Horses follow leaders. You have to be a leader to be followed.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by cleveland13

I like the idea of natural horsemanship, but I don't like the people who walk around saying that they're NH trainers, and that their way of doing NH is the best way to do it. Progressing the level of punishment (if you can really even call it that), like the backing up thing, is a natural horsemanship idea.

Nope, it shouldn't be viewed as punishment. It's an escalation of the request. Horses don't punish each other, they just keep asking with increasing intensity in order to get their point across. Once the requested action as been obeyed, they forget all about it and go about their business

I went to an amazing clinic by Gawani Pony Boy where they were teaching horses to stand still while they were mounted. After working with the horses for almost 1/2 an hour to get them calm, they all tried to mount again. If the horse moved while the owner tried to mount, the horse was sent around in a circle a few times. Then the owner would try again. If the horse still moved, they got sent around in more circles. These weren't wimpy 20m walk circles. They were smallish really fast trot cricles, which made the horses work. If the horse misbehaved a thrid time, they were sent in more cricles, and then went back to the basic "calming down stage". It was really amazing to watch. I used a variation of the method on my own mare, and she has gotten much better with standing still while I mount.

^^This, I like.^^

Yep, classic "Make the right thing easy, the wrong thing hard"


First, in order to do Parelli properly, you have to get the Parelli halter, the Parelli lead rope, the Parelli manuals, the Parelli bareback pad, etc. This seems more like a money making gimmick than a training method. [/quote]
Nope, you don't See my above post about alternative tool sources.

However, there IS a reason for the rope halter (and only certain types of rope), the stick with the string at the end, and the lead rope (and 12', not 9'). Flat halters are easier to lean on, rope halters have some bite, so the horse is more likely to not lean/pull. Cotton lead ropes are "dead", there is no wiggle room that the horse can subtly feel, it's either there, or it isn't, and when it "isn't", it can take a relatively long time to not be there. The material that all the good NH'ers use is "live", it has feel, it's quick to react whether that's being put into motion or stopped. That is very important in giving the horse the clues as to what's coming, and releasing the pressure the instant he complies. You can't get that type of communication with most other materials. It's 12' instead of 9' as when you need the horse to get out of your space, you want him OUT, not still within striking/kicking range. 9' of rope won't get you/him that far apart. The stick and string at the end are extensions of your hand, not weapons You have to be able to reach the horse who isn't right next to you. The stick alone is good for closer work, and the 6' string will allow you to work with the horse from farther away, when either safety or increasing the distance the horse will work away from you.

Also, there are all these restrictions on what horses in Parelli training can do depending on what levels they've completed. I think that, like all NH methods, there is some meritt to Parelli, I just haven't found it yet.

Yes, the "restrictions" and "do things in this order" can be confusing. They are designed that way for a reason, and unless/until you actually start down that path, and try to do things out of order, it can be difficult to understand. Everything builds on the previous exercises. Sure, you might be able to do something in Level 2 while you are still working on Level 1, but the more you try to skip ahead, the more holes you will find and the more frustrated you and/or the horse might get. Each task in each Level is there to make sure that the horse and you can communicate on that level. If you can do it right the first time, and the next 10 times, it might mean you both already knew how to do it and move on. But the exercises are still there for you to come back to when you find holes in the training down the road (and everyone does ).

She told everyone that he had mastered 3rd level Parelli. ...she wrote that Sooner must be fed in the field because he does not tie (cross tie, tie to a fence, ground tie, anything...). I though that this was odd for a horse trained to 3rd level Parelli not to have to be cross tied, but I knew Parelli was a little funny with some things.[/quote]

LMAO. This woman is one of those giving PNH and NH in general a bad name. PNH never says a horse shouldn't be tied. ANY horse correctly taken through Level 3 (did she have certificates? I doubt it) can be tied to anything, anywhere, and ESPECIALLY will ground tie. LMAO...

Within about 10min, she came back over to the barn owner and said "This horse isn't trained to 3rd level Parelli. His owner must be crazy." The lady wanted to try to load the other horse before Sooner, since Sooner didn't even want to go near the trailer. The barn owner said "Let me hold Sooner because he doesn't tie." The lady then said "If he doesn't tie, he can't even be a level one horse. This is insane!" After about an hour, they got all three horses loaded, and left, and that's the end of that.

Again, LMAO! This woman...

Whenever I get approached by an NH "trainer" I just try to remeber this family, and don't let the whole thing get to me...

And well you should. Just as you should be wary of anyone who says to you that they are a dressage "trainer" or driving "trainer" or hunter "trainer". The proof is in the pudding, and if the pudding isn't even there, well...

[Care To Jazz?]

if that lady had approached me like that I would have laughed and said "Wow how many parelli videos have you memorized?" but that's just me. I love Cowgirlup's siggy it explains pretty much everything . I think that you need to find a different way to training each and every horse. Some horses respond well to NH but others a lot less. I also HATE it when people think that they're suddenly the best trainers in the world just because they watched a parelli tape. I think everyone agrees with that .