[IIIBarsV]

"I whispered but my horse didn't listen" <--- That cracked me up so hard.

We also must remember that horses have free will too. Just because we do it right, or even make it impossible for them to resist through whatever method... they can still CHOOSE not to listen, no matter how hard you whack them or how sweetly you whisper to them.

I remember this one horse my mom had in for training when I was about 12. This was a big (16.3ish), black, long-headed, long-backed, high-necked, long-legged piece of work. The owners said "Tennessee Walker Cross", but I'm thinking Percheron/TB cross that didn't work out as intended.

We had her for about two months. In that entire time, being ridden 5 or 6 days a week, this big, black mare (aptly named "Ebony") learned how to walk with tack and a rider. She learned how to trot with tack and a rider. She "sort of" learned how to whoa. Cantering was hit or miss.

This horse routinely knocked down steel gates, walked over top of you, and seemed to learn something one day, but had apparently forgotten everything she learned the day before by the next day. It was unreal how little this horse understood or retained.

It was like she had a brain injury or something, or some kind of mental disability. She was unbelieveable. You'd teach her something, and she'd seem to have the jist of it by the end of the lesson. Next day, right back to square one.

I heard she got sent out to two more trainers (both friends of the family), and one sent her home after a month, and the other sent her home a little more trained than she was when she left my place. They got her to canter a little quicker, and back up, and steer routinely after three months.

All I can say in conclusion... is that it was a **** good thing Ebony didn't care to buck or misbehave. She just walked into you like she walked through those steel gates.

[Aussiesnapps]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

I don't know who you worked with, but the ones I worked with didn't have psycho animals. In fact, the ones that were done with racing were usually

I also saw a lot of horses given away too because they aren't worth anything to the owners they are just taking up space and money. But for the amount of horses I had to deal with from all the barns a vast majority NOT ALL were ill mannered, ill tempered, flighty, head shy, claustrophobic creatures and

One went to a woman who was pregnant, who proceeded to ride the 'psycho' horse bareback with a halter on the hills in Tennessee. Another 'psycho' horse was given to a teenage girl to ride. I have more stories, but you get the point.
There is bad and good in ALL training...yes, even NH. As soon as the 'NH followers' understand it, the better off we'll all be. Just because you do not do NH, doesn't mean you are abusive.

I never sad that LOL but I have seen plenty of horses off the track WA and NM and CA and TX with problems. Horse racing isn't about getting a life time horse it's about getting a runner. the Race industry is about winning and there are alot of stable hands that witness trainers and exercise riders that have little or no time to look into horse behavior and the cause for it's failure either it can run or not. they start at two and are done racing by 4 I have too known of a few good horses off the track that made nice horses but there are far more that are messed up physically or mentally then are not.

I'm sorry to say, that these people were just ignorant an abusive. There was no training there. Hopefully this kind of ignorance was in a small area. AS I stated, I never saw any 'trainer' do anything of this nature to a horse since I've been around horses. And it's getting tiring that if you don't claim to do NH then you are labeled as the above.

I don't believe if you aren't a NH trainer that you are like those folks i earlier stated. You just said that it was old western movies and you doubted the authenticity of my post. and from what you stated below, MS, you do use some form of natural horsemanship. using pressure is using natural horsemanship you just do it at your own level like the rest of us do. I don't use a rope halter either, I don't use a carrot stick and I do use a round pen and a lunge whip and I do wack my horse if it's disrespectful.

Good training is good training, period. You don't have to 'follow' someone to be a good trainer. I don't own a rope halter, carrot stick, handy stick, etc. I use regular halters, I LUNGE my horse, I use a LUNGE WHIP. I WILL do 'mindless circles' if I feel the horse needs them. I know how much pressure to use, how to use 'give and take' for getting a horse to give to the bit, I use side reins to teach a horse how to 'carry' a bit, and how to go forward into the pressure of the bit. I don't play 'games' with my horse-I train them.

[MaggieSue]

and from what you stated below, MS, you do use some form of natural horsemanship. using pressure is using natural horsemanship you just do it at your own level like the rest of us do.

See, I dont' consider that 'NH', I consider it traditional training, because that's how I learned. NH didn't come around for years after I learned how to ride and train my horses-so in fact...NH IS Traditional training!! Most good trainers do what I do, I consider it traditional, because as I said-NH didn't come along for many years, I follow NONE of the NH trainers.

the Race industry is about winning and there are alot of stable hands that witness trainers and exercise riders that have little or no time to look into horse behavior and the cause for it's failure either it can run or not.

Yes, there are alot of bad trainers EVERYWHERE-not just the track. The trainer I work for is not like that, he and his wife work together, figuring out exactly what is wrong with the horse if its not winning or working well. We have turned around too many horses at the track-winning at least 2 dozen races last year.

[Aussiesnapps]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

See, I dont' consider that 'NH', I consider it traditional training, because that's how I learned. NH didn't come around for years after I learned how to ride and train my horses-so in fact...NH IS Traditional training!! Most good trainers do what I do, I consider it traditional, because as I said-NH didn't come along for many years, I follow NONE of the NH trainers.

Awww Now I see where the break down is. Natural horsemanship is a coined term that has been put on a bunch of products, but the practice has been around since the beginning of time it's just within the last few years that it became a "the in thing". I don't follow any of the trainers religiously either. I go to see what approach they use and then pull out what I want to use. I don't buy the programs, the carrot sticks, balls, halters and leads or the memberships. I just go to spectate and take what I can. I learn body language and refine my use of pressure. I could get caught up in the products(NOT ALL, just tack) because I like to spend money but I DO NOT TAKE MY CREDIT CARD with me.

NH commercial programs are a craze that has added so much on top of the true meaning and has been packaged for the average owner to be able to get measurable results. This by no means is the only opinion or defination of Natural Horsemanship.

[accphotography]

If you only knew how many race farms (breeding farms who start initial training) and race barns still "cowboy" their horses. I live in Lexington, KY, the heart of racing and trust me, I know what goes on around here. Most of the time, it's not pretty.

Aussiesnapps: You've got it.

ACC

[Maisie]

Originally Posted by i_luv_wildfire

Oh, and can I just add that I hate how people market NH? I mean, to me NH is acting like a horse to try and communicate with a horse. It's thinking like a horse. It's not shelling out several hundred bucks to get some DVD's and a glorified lunge whip and halter/lead combo so that you, too, can listen to your horse. I mean, no one invented natural horsemanship. It was just there. People have developed phrases and techniques for teaching other people how to think like a horse, but they didn't invent the language itself. It's always been there.

Very well put , I agree 100%
surely it's a question of reading each horse as an individual & using whatever method is appropriate/required for THAT particular horse
... without being cruelly abusive of course.
I think natural horsemen/women are born not made, & at the end of the day, we can all learn from each other & a little bit from all training methods
as well ... to suit our individual needs.

[barrel_chic]

All I got to say is WOW

[kyryah]

Hash...Re-Hash...Hash...Re-Hash...Hash...Re-Hash...Hash...Re-Hash...

Originally Posted by mncowgirl

This is the thread that never ends,
It just goes on and on my friends
Some people started reading it, not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue to reply to it forever just because—

All together now.......

[Aussiesnapps]

If you are new to this thread and you have read it all you deserve an award!

[MaggieSue]

If you only knew how many race farms (breeding farms who start initial training) and race barns still "cowboy" their horses. I live in Lexington, KY, the heart of racing and trust me, I know what goes on around here. Most of the time, it's not pretty

I know trainers, I know breeders, I work at the track.