[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by AppalosaCowGirl

Ill jump the band wagon and say that I am not a fan of natural horsemanship either.

thats when I discovered Clint Anderson.. Sooo much easier for me to grasp..

Clinton Anderson IS a NH trainer This goes back to what IIIBarsV said - no single method of teaching something gets through to 100% of the population. JL didn't work for you, but CA does. Yay for you!

[AppalosaCowGirl]

so perhaps I need to understand what isn't NH training... huh interesting... well I here to be educated..

see I thought natural horsemanship was like "not hitting the horse, etc" and I certainly don't mind "hitting" my horse and because I thought that about NH, that is why I didn't think Clint was a NH trainer...

so someone, please explain

[Aussiesnapps]

It's funny how people are so different (like horses) when it comes to the delivery of training or the trainers and what they they take away.

Just a thought...Is there any trainers, on the top of the success ladder, that are not using a form of natural horsemanship?

I cannot think of any off the top of my head. It seems that they are all getting the idea that to be successful you must have some sense of what the natural characteristics and instincts of the horse actually is.

The old way of tying up, snubbing, blind folding, bucking out, dragging them into the water and swimming, head cracking with bottles, barb wire bits are not the norm thank goodness.

[Aussiesnapps]

Originally Posted by AppalosaCowGirl

so perhaps I need to understand what isn't NH training... huh interesting... well I here to be educated..

see I thought natural horsemanship was like "not hitting the horse, etc" and I certainly don't mind "hitting" my horse and because I thought that about NH, that is why I didn't think Clint was a NH trainer...

so someone, please explain

"My" best explanation would be using the natural instincts, herd social behaviors, and proper amount of pressure mixed with human safety first, and establishing your self in the dominate role even if it takes a degree of scolding at the level that the horse can understand. Watch the Alfa Mare if you want to see the amount (level) of scolding it takes to take the role of the "dominate". I'm sure there are other great definitions but this is just a bit of the top of my head

[MaggieSue]

The old way of tying up, snubbing, blind folding, bucking out, dragging them into the water and swimming, head cracking with bottles, barb wire bits are not the norm thank goodness.

I've been riding for 20years and have never seen or heard of anyone doing this. I believe it's the old westerns that people think about when they talk of this, because I know of nobody who does this. This is why I also 'hate NH'...because the BNT's like to put this garbage out there, that unless you do NH...you do the above. And it's not true.

Just a thought...Is there any trainers, on the top of the success ladder, that are not using a form of natural horsemanship?

There are more 'successful' trainers that don't use it than do. I know of trainers at the track and show trainers that honestly have never heard of Parelli or Anderson.

see I thought natural horsemanship was like "not hitting the horse, etc" and I certainly don't mind "hitting" my horse and because I thought that about NH, that is why I didn't think Clint was a NH trainer...

They ALL hit the horse...they just call it something else. There are times when you must use force to get a horse to do what you need it to do. They are huge animals, and if you want them to move out of your way...you cannot just 'ask' them to do it-when starting training, you must MAKE them move. Once you can make them do it, then you can use less 'pressure' and start asking. But don't believe for one second that none of them don't hit the horse.

[AppalosaCowGirl]

Originally Posted by Aussiesnapps

"My" best explanation would be using the natural instincts, herd social behaviors, and proper amount of pressure mixed with human safety first, and establishing your self in the dominate role even if it takes a degree of scolding at the level that the horse can understand. Watch the Alfa Mare if you want to see the amount (level) of scolding it takes to take the role of the "dominate". I'm sure there are other great definitions but this is just a bit of the top of my head

Ahhh it all seems clear to me now thanks, I guess I use NH methods...

and I like clinton because of the way he explains things.

Originally Posted by Aussiesnapps

It's funny how people are so different (like horses) when it comes to the delivery of training or the trainers and what they they take away.

Just a thought...Is there any trainers, on the top of the success ladder, that are not using a form of natural horsemanship?

this is true I don't really understand all this.
how exactly are you training if you aren't using some form of NH?
(heh I haven't been part of a big discussion in a long time. this is fun I always like learning new things)

[Nevada_Silk]

Originally Posted by AppalosaCowGirl

huh well I have def dont have the time to read all 109 pages but Ill jump the band wagon and say that I am not a fan of natural horsemanship either.

also another question... i did not know this...
is John Lyons considered a NH trainer?
if so No wonder I never got his methods! O.O I have like three years of back issues of "Perfect horse" but I could never understand what he was talking about.

thats when I discovered Clint Anderson.. Sooo much easier for me to grasp..

lol anyway... continue

You didn't get John Lyons? His methods are just common sense.

[Aussiesnapps]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

I've been riding for 20years and have never seen or heard of anyone doing this. I believe it's the old westerns that people think about when they talk of this, because I know of nobody who does this. This is why I also 'hate NH'...because the BNT's like to put this garbage out there, that unless you do NH...you do the above. And it's not true.

What is the BNT? I just missed that one completely LOL

I have seen some old timers do these extreme training methods in person starting when I was about 10. (30 years ago) up to the last one was about 6 years ago. It was terrible. My own family would tie a horses back leg up for hours or it's nose to it's saddle stirrup for hours in the sun. I watch someone haul a horse into a water hole with a tractor, blind folded and put a rider on an let him loose. I watched as a guy who had a horse that reared up all the time he took a two liter jug of warm water scored around the middle and antagonized the horse to rear, and from the saddle hit the horse between the ears as hard as he could. the water would spill over the horse and it would feak out. none of these were effective by any means but I have seen them all and to my amazement it was not in a movie

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

There are more 'successful' trainers that don't use it than do. I know of trainers at the track and show trainers that honestly have never heard of Parelli or Anderson.

I never said that they have heard of those guys,but i believe a lot of trainers are using some sort of methods that work with the horses natural instincts. I worked the back of the track, which is most likely not the discipline of most folks on this thread probably try to attain, and would say that most of those horses are not trained to do anything but lean into the bit and run so, shoot me dead, I don't consider most horses fresh of the track more that psyco animals that will take twice as long to undo the "training" they have received. I can't say much about the show circuit but i would imagine it's got it's extremes too

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

They ALL hit the horse...they just call it something else. There are times when you must use force to get a horse to do what you need it to do. They are huge animals, and if you want them to move out of your way...you cannot just 'ask' them to do it-when starting training, you must MAKE them move. Once you can make them do it, then you can use less 'pressure' and start asking. But don't believe for one second that none of them don't hit the horse.

I do believe that waking or hitting the snot out of a horse that is disrespectful is a must. It wouldn't be taken from the dominate horse so that's the role I take...
"make it fast and as hard as necessary to get the point across and then let them back in on your terms"

[MaggieSue]

I don't consider most horses fresh of the track more that psyco animals that will take twice as long to undo the "training" they have received. I can't say much about the show circuit but i would imagine it's got it's extremes too

I don't know who you worked with, but the ones I worked with didn't have psycho animals. In fact, the ones that were done with racing were usually given away-or sold at a very cheap price. One went to a woman who was pregnant, who proceeded to ride the 'psycho' horse bareback with a halter on the hills in Tennessee. Another 'psycho' horse was given to a teenage girl to ride. I have more stories, but you get the point.
There is bad and good in ALL training...yes, even NH. As soon as the 'NH followers' understand it, the better off we'll all be. Just because you do not do NH, doesn't mean you are abusive.

I have seen some old timers do these extreme training methods in person starting when I was about 10. (30 years ago) up to the last one was about 6 years ago. It was terrible. My own family would tie a horses back leg up for hours or it's nose to it's saddle stirrup for hours in the sun. I watch someone haul a horse into a water hole with a tractor, blind folded and put a rider on an let him loose. I watched as a guy who had a horse that reared up all the time he took a two liter jug of warm water scored around the middle and antagonized the horse to rear, and from the saddle hit the horse between the ears as hard as he could. the water would spill over the horse and it would feak out. none of these were effective by any means but I have seen them all and to my amazement it was not in a movie

I'm sorry to say, that these people were just ignorant an abusive. There was no training there. Hopefully this kind of ignorance was in a small area. AS I stated, I never saw any 'trainer' do anything of this nature to a horse since I've been around horses. And it's getting tiring that if you don't claim to do NH then you are labeled as the above.

What is the BNT?

BigNameTrainer

how exactly are you training if you aren't using some form of NH?

Good training is good training, period. You don't have to 'follow' someone to be a good trainer. I don't own a rope halter, carrot stick, handy stick, etc. I use regular halters, I LUNGE my horse, I use a LUNGE WHIP. I WILL do 'mindless circles' if I feel the horse needs them. I know how much pressure to use, how to use 'give and take' for getting a horse to give to the bit, I use side reins to teach a horse how to 'carry' a bit, and how to go forward into the pressure of the bit. I don't play 'games' with my horse-I train them.

[hezadlux]

I whispered but my horse didnt listen...