[missy'sbabydoll]

and p.s. brandi lyons had a clinic here in az where she lives and advertised she needed unbroke wild horses for her clinic. we offered her six wild mares we got in the rescue from blm. she said and i quote" i didn't mean literally wild, how am i supposed to handle them if they are wild" i thought enough said. what a fake.

[lucky_pine]

Monty Roberts is HANDS DOWN the ONLY natural horsemanship trainer out there. He uses NOTHING but his body to talk to the horse.

Everyone else just incorporates natural horsemanship. Basically, hey, if I move my shoulder this way and horse turns that way, I did something NATURAL. Dumb.

[doublebarr]

Just thought I'd throw this out here since this is such a controversial topic

My grandfather used to talk to me about training methods before he passed and my FIL often speaks about things he's seen and things he's seeing now. The one comment he often makes is that the so called NH trainers who are putting good using horses on the market, the ones who know how to establish an alpha relationship with the horse, and know how to reward correct behavior while being willing to have patience with a horse that does not respond to new training or situations right away are remarkably like some of the old time "savy" trainers everyone sought out for their Ranches and were in high demand as "colt starters". These were the cowboys who would guard their training "secrets" closely and only work with the horses in a closed environment. They might have one or two young hands work with them if they decided they liked their sand and attitude. Eldon, FIL, says that it wasn't that they were trying to keep their secrets, but that most people of that time would scoff and laugh at the way they thought about and worked with the young horses. They were used to the "tie it down, throw a saddle on it and LET 'EM BUCK" school of thought. But these were the same people that respected the hands for their abilities to put a real foundation on a horse, as long as they did not actually have to witness the "kind" way they worked with a horse. Wasn't "manly" enough for a rough lifestyle. These old trainers had truely put a lifetime of work with enough horses and enough hard knocks to be willing to look for a easier way to get the same or better end result, without getting hurt. So while the term Natural Horsemanship may be more of a "marketing tool" now, it is nothing new.

And IMO, true Natural Horsemanship comes from time spent working with many, many different horses. You can read all you want, watch all the CD's you can get your hands on, but the only way to really learn is to put the ideas in practice and begin to read horses yourself and learn what works and what doesn't. I am not a "NH only" rider or trainer, but am a student of the horse. Hopefully, I will continue to be as good a student as my Grandfather and FIL are. Gpaw Rathgiber kept reading and learning till he passed and Eldon (FIL) and I still read and compare notes on "new" training methods that we come across or hear about. But nothing can give you the real knowledge but time under saddle and around horses.

[lucky_pine]

What's funny though, is that most of the people right now bashing those natural horsemanship guys, have probably used one of their methods at one point in time.
Like roundpenning, using your body to turn them. Your seat to stop them. Join up.
You WILL NOT make a believer out of me if I know you've used one of their methods...or if I know you roundpen (haha, caught ya, roundpenning is a big NH method) and then tell me you don't like natural horsemanship and think it's bull.

Sadly guys, NH plays a HUGE part in everyday training. Unless you are cowboying the horse when you first got on them, you've probably used NH.

[cowgirlnat]

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

Monty Roberts is HANDS DOWN the ONLY natural horsemanship trainer out there. He uses NOTHING but his body to talk to the horse.

Everyone else just incorporates natural horsemanship. Basically, hey, if I move my shoulder this way and horse turns that way, I did something NATURAL. Dumb.

I'm sorry, but have you read any of his books? First of all, he uses way more than his body to talk to his horse. He uses a halter that acts like a milder version of a stud chain. Then the uses more gadgets and gimics than Inspector Gadget to reach his goal. For example...introducing a rider, he has an entire dummy built for this purpose. To cure a horse from pulling back includes the construction of a pen, wall, and special bungie tie. To fix head shyness he uses a blow dryer. He may have developed a language that works with horses on the ground and I have used join-up with my horse. But beyond that, I don't like him as an all around trainer.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

Monty Roberts is HANDS DOWN the ONLY natural horsemanship trainer out there. He uses NOTHING but his body to talk to the horse.

So why will he, in a CLINIC, put a war bridle on a horse and make him buck so that he hurts himself in the bridle so he learns to not buck? Why not address the root causes of why the horse is bucking in the first place?

[Endorphins4u2]

One could say the same thing about your endorphin tap

Yep, and it was most of the NH believes that jump on my head when I first came here, and now I see they are against NH ..I'm lost

You still have to have some common sense and realize when you're over your head and need outside, live person help.

BINGO...and it is this common sense that tells you what could or couldn't be useful and this goes for anything we see or read..

Horse sense is the equine version of common sense...you either have it or you dont..you can't buy it ...yes, it's cold but true...

This is why we see 5 people start riding at the same time but only 1 out of that 5 will excell better than the others...

I see it all the time here and in other sports, some people are just naturals and excell better than others..

[JBandRio]

doublebarr, what a great post, and so true!

[lucky_pine]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

Just thought I'd throw this out here since this is such a controversial topic

My grandfather used to talk to me about training methods before he passed and my FIL often speaks about things he's seen and things he's seeing now. The one comment he often makes is that the so called NH trainers who are putting good using horses on the market, the ones who know how to establish an alpha relationship with the horse, and know how to reward correct behavior while being willing to have patience with a horse that does not respond to new training or situations right away are remarkably like some of the old time "savy" trainers everyone sought out for their Ranches and were in high demand as "colt starters". These were the cowboys who would guard their training "secrets" closely and only work with the horses in a closed environment. They might have one or two young hands work with them if they decided they liked their sand and attitude. Eldon, FIL, says that it wasn't that they were trying to keep their secrets, but that most people of that time would scoff and laugh at the way they thought about and worked with the young horses. They were used to the "tie it down, throw a saddle on it and LET 'EM BUCK" school of thought. But these were the same people that respected the hands for their abilities to put a real foundation on a horse, as long as they did not actually have to witness the "kind" way they worked with a horse. Wasn't "manly" enough for a rough lifestyle. These old trainers had truely put a lifetime of work with enough horses and enough hard knocks to be willing to look for a easier way to get the same or better end result, without getting hurt. So while the term Natural Horsemanship may be more of a "marketing tool" now, it is nothing new.

And IMO, true Natural Horsemanship comes from time spent working with many, many different horses. You can read all you want, watch all the CD's you can get your hands on, but the only way to really learn is to put the ideas in practice and begin to read horses yourself and learn what works and what doesn't. I am not a "NH only" rider or trainer, but am a student of the horse. Hopefully, I will continue to be as good a student as my Grandfather and FIL are. Gpaw Rathgiber kept reading and learning till he passed and Eldon (FIL) and I still read and compare notes on "new" training methods that we come across or hear about. But nothing can give you the real knowledge but time under saddle and around horses.

AMEN to you!
I will proudly say the first time Lucky ever walked, trotted, loped around an arena with a rider on his back, he was wearing no saddle, no bridle, no ropes, nothing.
I have the movie to prove it.
Of course it wasn't exactly perfect harmony between horse and rider, but he was willing, he was quiet, and never once bucked.
And never once did Dallas (his trainer) kick him to get him to move. Never once have we EVER had to get in his mouth for ANYTHING.

To me, that's perfect NH.

[cowgirlnat]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

So why will he, in a CLINIC, put a war bridle on a horse and make him buck so that he hurts himself in the bridle so he learns to not buck? Why not address the root causes of why the horse is bucking in the first place?

Ha!! Forgot about that one too!! Can you imagine what his tack room looks like. He got a different tool for every problem. I have successfully trained my horse completely with nothing more than a lead rope, halter, and saddle pad. I prepped him enough with those that the introduction of a bit and saddle didn't cause him to bat an eye. I didn't need a fancy halter, dummy, war bridle, carrot stick, or whatever other gimic they're trying to sell.