[JBandRio]

Good TRAINING takes time, regardless of whether it's an "official" NH method or not. The better you become at training, the less elapsed time it takes because your timing and feel are dead on and the horse learns so much more quickly. But to get to the point where you, the trainer, are that efficient, you have to have your fair share of "wet saddle blankets" in working on things. So yes, NH takes time. Classical Dressage training takes time. All good training, regardless of label, takes time. To follow a specific program takes time if you want to get the most out of is and follow each and every step. If you and your horse get one step easily, no need to spend hours/days on it - realize that you have it, and move on. I do agree that too many people want instant results, or think they are doing things right therefore the horse SHOULD be doing things right. If those people would only take the time (hehe) to understand how horses learn, they would progress so much more quickly with a much less frustrated horse.

[accphotography]

I agree with that for the most part JB&R. Training does take time, and learning how the horse learns is a big key to mutual understanding. I strongly support your comment about people think they are doing it right and getting wrong results.

ACC

[Bruce Wiley]

I will second, third that and I agree JB.
Many people blame the method- the label or the technique, but one of the true reasons are (Bad Application).
This would also come by someone feeling they understand the method or the instructions of the training.
Have anyone of you ever had someone come up to you, asking for directions to a certain place & you can see they're not fully listening.
They're reasonning is that, they are some what familar but not fully.
Later, they are in a situation, where problem surfaces like being lost and in need of getting direction again.
So it is easy to blame the person that gave the direction or the label method, horse or the trainer.
When will people stop & listen, getting the understanding thats needed in order to reduce any application errors or mis understanding, being certain about what they're doing first.
This is the case about horses...they already know what you don't know and you can't fool them.

[accphotography]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wiley

This is the case about horses...they already know what you don't know and you can't fool them.

This is... SO TRUE!!!

If the method is applied correctly, the desired result WILL happen. I'm not saying that it's easy either, because it's not (except for the true born naturals). Some people may not like this particular example because it involves some force, but this is one of my favorite stories:

Woman (or man) calls trainer saying she can't make her horse move away from her. Trainer asks if she is applying physical pressure and she replies "yes, I'm hitting him with the stick like you told me and I just keep hitting harder and I am worried I am going to hurt him so I stop hitting". Trainer replies "If he is not moving away when you hit him, you are not hitting hard enough." "But I am hitting really hard." "Ok, well answer this question: What living creature would stand still allowing itself to be struck repeatedly when the strike is causing pain?" "Hmmm... Ok... I'll keep going."

Ask nicely, then demand... they make the choice themselves. "As easy as possible but as firm as necessary."

ACC

[IIIBarsV]

I still say "flexibility". If I were to take a carrot stick (I have a knock off one... it's white and black :P) and start tapping the big grey with the aggressive attitude, he would come at me with hooves, teeth, and everything else he's got. No matter how hard or consistantly I could whack him, he would utterly refuse to move over, and worst of all, he'd come right back atcha.

This is a rare type of horse. Most horses who react aggressively do it out of fear or because they're young and don't know any better. Those type of horses, whose aggression is based in fear, eventually clue in and respond beautifully to that type of method.

Horses, rare though they are, like my big grey, are *not* afraid, and that means you've gotta come up with a better idea to get through to them and stay safe.

This ultimately means that no matter how many horses you've had great success with using one method, when that one horse comes along who doesn't respond to it at all, you've got to take a step back, use your brain, and come up with a different method, even though it may even go against what you believe is almighty truth.

True NH is about using communication with the horse in order to discover what will work to gain his trust and respect. NH is really like having a conversation with someone- you can't have the exact same conversation and expect every single person to react in the same way. Therefore, as you would with any conversation, you flow with it. You change sentences here and there, hoping to get the desired effect out of someone.

I believe that this type of communication and ultimately training takes a fair bit of brainpower. Someone who cannot understand the art of communication will have limited success when following a NH program. Sure, you can wiggle the rope all you want, then wiggle it some more- but if you can't see when you need to stop flailing the carrot stick, or when to start... to put it simply... you may end up being a decent trainer who can get the average horse trained and safe to handle.

Phenomenal trainers- of any discipline, whether they call themselves NH or not- are those who are constant learners and most of all, FLEXIBLE with their methods.

Horses are like kids. Not every kid is going to learn the same way. A good teacher can see this and change the method in order to work the best with an individual.

Horses are individuals. No one can tell me that domesticated horses don't pick up on things from humans. In fact I often see horses who surpass their human owners in brainpower. Domesticated horses (ones who've been handled somewhat regularly by humans most of their lives) are as individual in themselves as I am from you.

I don't like chicken. Do you like chicken? Well, good for you. But don't try to force me to eat chicken and expect a successful result. If you want to give me protein, then give me fish, or turkey.

[JBandRio]

I absolutely agree with your example acc. I remember growing up learning to ride and trying to "make" my horse canter (or trot or heck,even just move!) so the instructor said "use your crop" So, I did - I thought I used it pretty hard, but he kept saying "more, more MORE!!!" I finally cried and said "but I'll HURT him!!!" LOL! Unless using a whip or whatever on the horse's head, it is highly unlikely that you will physically damage a horse as long as you have gone up the ranks of increasing pressure to give him a chance. And what a human can do with a crop or whip doesn't come close to what another horse can, and will do with teeth and feet.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

I still say "flexibility". If I were to take a carrot stick (I have a knock off one... it's white and black :P) and start tapping the big grey with the aggressive attitude, he would come at me with hooves, teeth, and everything else he's got.

Most horses won't take kindly to being approached with an aggressive attitude right off the bat How they react is a matter of their innate personality - fight or flight. I'm not saying that I think you routinely just start in on a horse, because I've read enough of yours posts to know that's not likely true

Any and all training should be approached using the same basic rule - start softly and subtly, using the most pressure or movement you ever want to end up using, and work up from there until you get the desired response (or an attempt, you can refine later). EVERYthing works on that principal. To not do that doesn't give the horse a chance, or at the very least teaches him to require strong aids to perform.

Beyond that, what aids/cues/tools you use, in what order, and on what body part is horse- and movement-specific.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

IHorses are like kids. Not every kid is going to learn the same way. A good teacher can see this and change the method in order to work the best with an individual.

Oh, I missed this the first time! You are SO right!!! My Dad is a physicist who has developed an insane repertoire of teaching tools to help students (college) grasp the concepts. He and my stepmom are working on software that allows virtual training, so flexible that the student can almost literally figure out how to teach himself. He often has been criticized by other teachers because "that's not how we've always taught that" and it makes the 2 of them insane. It's no wonder he's been the most requested physics teacher there for YEARS, the only one that some of the advisors will send their kids to (or tell them to try to wait another semester to get him). My Mom's the same way with teaching Spanish - huge number of ways to get concepts across.

[AppalosaCowGirl]

huh well I have def dont have the time to read all 109 pages but Ill jump the band wagon and say that I am not a fan of natural horsemanship either.

also another question... i did not know this...
is John Lyons considered a NH trainer?
if so No wonder I never got his methods! O.O I have like three years of back issues of "Perfect horse" but I could never understand what he was talking about.

thats when I discovered Clint Anderson.. Sooo much easier for me to grasp..

lol anyway... continue

[accphotography]

Yes John Lyons is NH depending on what you call NH. The funny thing is... so is Clinton Anderson. You say you understand (and seem to like) Clinton... so how can you say you don't like NH?

ACC