[SweetSavannah]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

Proven by who? Scientists who agree on something? Many things are 'proven', but many 'tests' are flawed. For instance, they talk about how certain things can be bad for you, but who do they test them on? Monkeys, rats, etc...they don't test on humans-so how can they know? Back in the 60's and 70's cholesterol was the 'big thing' then. It was studied so much, that people were afraid to eat anything with cholesterol in it because it was 'bad' for you. Eggs had cholesterol, butter, etc. But then there was 'new research' done and they found that there is actually 'good' cholesterol! So, who was right? And in 'studies' for diets, the FDAs food 'program' has people eating more carbs and less protein, while other 'scientific studies' show the exact opposite to be true!! Dr. ATkins found that if you eliminate 'carbs' from your diet, you will actually loose more weight and you will be much healthier. So...which 'scientific study' is right? The Scientists in the 1400's thought the world was flat...now we know better. When I was in school there were 9 planets, now there's more?!?! Now, I'm not saying they don't have their place, but don't tell me that they are the 'Gospel' 'End of Conversation'. What I'm saying is that 'scientific fact' changes everyday.

tell me you DID NOT just compare behavioural science to "The Atkins" diet!!!!

[SweetSavannah]

*picks up cattleprod* come on dead horse lets you and me get some flogging done!

If anyone would bother to ACTUALLY read my posts-I don't say anything bad about NH!! I have said MANY MANY TIMES that MOST of the training methods are good. What I have a problem with is how THEY portray ALL other methods as evil and cruel!!

i love how you say "they all" when clearly you are basing your ENTIRE ARGUMENT on having met one fanatic NHer who has obviously soured you towards NH as a whole without actually having bothered to study the method past its superficial image.

there are "Cali's" in every discipline, every sport and every new movement. everything from natural therapy (my horse need a cup of chamomile in his feed every day), homeopathy (i massage my horse with essential oils before every show), through to every conceivable treatment/training method! there is always a Cali who feels so passionately about their chosen "method" that they feel that everyone else is missing out and take it upon themselves to share their 'joy' with us.

in fact i would say that the continuous bleating about how "i never said" and "my horses this" and "my methods that" is actually more grating than anything any NHer would have EVER said to you during your lifespan!

and yet we have endured it, listened respectfully to your arguments (which seem to succeed only through you going off on irrelevant tangents and starting to argue the point of cholesterol in EGGS!) and after all this you still cannot seem to accept, or admit, that maybe... just maybe... your initial perception of Natural Horsemanship was wrong!

maybe natural horsemen ARE ACTUAL HORSEMEN! WITH REAL SKILL AND ABILITY!

unless you can bring some new meat to the table that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO natural horsemanship methods, their practices, their effectiveness, and the inclusion of behavioural science in training methods then just... dont... bother.

[MaggieSue]

maybe natural horsemen ARE ACTUAL HORSEMEN! WITH REAL SKILL AND ABILITY!

SS...you also need to read what you quoted from me-I never said they weren't. THAT is not the argument.

I have said MANY MANY TIMES that MOST of the training methods are good

love how you say "they all" when clearly you are basing your ENTIRE ARGUMENT on having met one fanatic NHer who has obviously soured you towards NH as a whole without actually having bothered to study the method past its superficial image.

Nope, these things are said by the actual 'guru's of NH...Parelli, Reis, and of course their 'students', because they just parrot what their 'leaders' say.

The Parelli method allows horse lovers at all levels and disciplines to achieve: success without force, partnership without dominance, teamwork without fear, willingness without intimidation, and harmony without coercion.

n fact i would say that the continuous bleating about how "i never said" and "my horses this" and "my methods that" is actually more grating than anything any NHer would have EVER said to you during your lifespan!

It get's old having to repeat myself! If you would actually read what I write, I wouldn't have to.

listened respectfully to your arguments

Now THAT is debatable!

your initial perception of Natural Horsemanship was wrong!

AGain, not the argument here.

tell me you DID NOT just compare behavioural science to "The Atkins" diet!!!!

Yep, sure did! He was a Doctor, he did his research for years, just as all other scientists do.
What I'm saying is...things change all the time-'truths' become opinions and are no longer relevant when other pieces are put into the equation. I'm not saying that science doesn't have it's place-but it's not the 'last word'. There's always more they are discovering.

(which seem to succeed only through you going off on irrelevant tangents and starting to argue the point of cholesterol in EGGS!)

It was quite relevant, but you didn't seem to understand. You are the one talking about scientific facts, I argued that many times 'facts' change. THAT was the argument, it wasn't about 'eggs'. Geez.

unless you can bring some new meat to the table that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO natural horsemanship methods, their practices, their effectiveness, and the inclusion of behavioural science in training methods then just... dont... bother.

Please read my posts before you post next time. It will help tremendously. AGAIN, for the umteenth time-that's not the argument. I will not post that again.

[LGGL]

Nope, these things are said by the actual 'guru's of NH...Parelli, Reis, and of course their 'students', because they just parrot what their 'leaders' say.

Who are they? Names & who many of them are there? You constantly keep making generalizations. I don't believe you!

It get's old having to repeat myself!

Not as old as this thread. If you actually said anything of substance and quit just posting babble.

Maggie Sue, I will agree with you on one thing, you don't practice Natural Horsemanship. I am actually not sure what you practice or whether all your talk about working with horses is just that, talk.

I will not post that again.

Just take "that" out of the sentence.

[Ava]

can you people just let this topic be, theres always going to be people with different opinons about 'parelli' and every other type of natural horsemanship. Theres always going to be people with it and agaisnt it. Just let this topic with its '103' pages die and move on to another topic.

[PalominoBaby57]

guys this is a really old post and all your doing is causing an argument. Everyone who posts is gonna think they're right, your just wasting time by fighting over it.

Wheres the mod-squad?

[isabook]

Originally Posted by TrickPony

Okay... sorry, but this is really starting to get to me.

When natural horsemanship first started being marketed to a wide audience, I thought it presented some neat ideas (through Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli, John Lyons, some of those original guys). I didn't agree with everything, but some of the literature was very interesting and I liked the idea of working with your horse instead of against it.

Now, however, it's just getting ridiculous. Today, I was riding my horse at a public arena, and he was refusing to back. This is a training issue he has - the previous owner would let him walk through the stop and back up.

So, I was carrying a dressage whip, walked him into a fence, and asked for the backup again. He just set himself against it - so rather than pull harder on his mouth, I tapped him on the chest with my dressage whip. Still no response, so I gave him a pretty hearty smack to wake him up and to let him know he can't just not respond to a cue.

Note... he had three chances to do the right thing here. I've been practicing this with him quite a bit, and he now knows that walking into a fence and rolling back on my seatbones means to stop and backup. He's also clear on the back-up cue (rein pressure). The first tap was a light one. So - by the time I really got after him, it wasn't like I was harrassing him for no reason.
After that - he backed freely and lightly every time I asked him.

This lady comes over out of the blue and starts on some 15 minute rant aboout how she's this amazing natural horsemanship trainer and could really help me get over some of these resistance issues through trust and cooperation.
It just went on and on and on... I seriously wanted to kill myself.

You know what? Being able to run a horse around in a roundpen does not make you a natural horsemanship trainer. Being able to ride your horse without a bridle does not mean that you have this deeper than thou connection with your horse.
Hitting your horse does not mean that your training methods are inferior... just different. Hello, horses kick, bite, and otherwise hurt each other in the pasture. Pain is just another way of getting a point across in the animal kingdom.

Sorry, just had to get this off my chest. Since the whole "natural horsemanship" movement 10 years ago, it seems like suddenly everybody is a trainer. Back off with this stuff. It's a way of getting things done, but not neccesarily THE way.

And you know what? My horses like me well enough to let me hang off the side of them - they have some many chances to kill me if they really wanted to. And yes, I hit them, get after them, and not all my methods are "natural". But at the end of the day they are still well trained, respectful, and not afraid of humans.

You Just said what I have been wanting to SCREAM AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS For a while now!!!! amen!!! that just made me feel better hahah!!

Kendra

[LGGL]

Originally Posted by Julie Goodnight

"Natural horsemanship (NH) simply means that we know and understand the horse's instinctive and herd behaviors and that we use that information to develop a willing partnership and communicate with the horse and in a way that he understands."

That is all NH is. Nothing more, nothing less.

Natural Horsemanship can be practice with many other forms and styles of training. It is not about equipment, tack, etc. Having a problem with a particular trainer, clinician, student, whatever is having a problem with an individual. There are jerks everywhere. I think its is inappropriate to label a group by one persons or a few peoples actions.





I the words of PORKEY PIG ....... that's all folks!

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by LGGL

...Maggie Sue, I will agree with you on one thing, you don't practice Natural Horsemanship. I am actually not sure what you practice or whether all your talk about working with horses is just that, talk..

Now THAT is a good question, let's see some photos of video of MS and crew in action, I"m sure we could all lear 'much'

What you have to realize LGGL and everyone else... at this point in time MS is just trying to be the last word on the topic as she ALWAYS TRIES to do... and when she can't out argue you any longer, she puts you on "IGNORE" since she gets tired of being made to look the blowhard fool that she can come across as at times....

She is DEFINATELY continuously doing what she claims "THEY" (I too wonder who THEY are since not ALL people who use NH principals go around telling other people it is the only way to do things ) all do... BOY just go to a thread where someone asks about working on collection and headseat and bring up the word DRAW REINS or TRAINING FORK and you'll get pages of her telling people that anyone who would use such tools (even assuming they use them in a proper fashion and not as a force action)are incapable of correctly riding/training a horse because it's not how SHE learned to do things a whole whopping 20 yrs ago, blah, blah, blah...

So yes she's indeed doing the very thing she says she "HATES" about "NH FOLLOWERS" the slamming of another person's choice of methodology and tools to get a job done effectively and in a fair manner for the horse.

[EquineJessie]

Ok, I'll just say here that I'm very turned off to NH by other people's attitudes.

Maybe it's silly of me. I used to like to read Pat Parelli's stuff and watch him. That is, until ONE lady was trying to explain to me how everything not Pat Parelli was wrong wrong wrong and cruel. Basically, because I didn't follow Pat Parelli and own all his videos, I didn't know a thing and my horses were abused.

I also used to really like all of John Lyons stuff. It was interesting and he's an excellent horseman. I also used to post a lot on the John Lyons board. But, when I was explaining why one would use the inside leg to turn the horse and why one would bit up a horse -- the reasoning behind it and why performance horse trainers do these things -- a few of them were all over me. Those things were terrible because they're not 'john lyons'.

I know for me, I want to know as many methods as possible. I want to have as many tools in my box as I can and for me, it's whatever works for that individual horse.

While I have a lot of respect for all the NH trainers, the few condescending people I've met make it very hard to like 'NH'.