[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Beautifulsould

There is a NH trainer at my barn who says if the horse misbehaves that it is always to the riders fault!!! Yes sometimes it is our fault, but when a horse is not listening or bucking then it is the horses fault, they are misbehaving!

It usually IS the rider's fault Unclear cues, ill fitting saddle, physical pain, something is nearly always the cause of the "misbehaving" other than "dang, I feel like bucking today, that's so much easier than just going forward!"

Some NH trainers let their horses get away with everything. My philosphy, ask then tell then make your horse do something! NH is great, but it is really taken too far!

Then they are not real NH'ers, not real trainers. REAL horsepeople (NH'ers or not) don't "let" their horse get away with anything.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Gallop N Gal

I dont like NH very much either. There used to be a group of them that would hog the arena for 4 hours!! They were completley ignoring the fact that other boarders needed to use it too!!

It's the people you aren't liking here, not the philosophy

The main reason I dont like it is because its just plain weird!! Waggling your finger to get your horse to back up??!! And the way they lunge, they have them on a very short rope and make them canter?! Isnt that supposed to be bad on their legs??? And those rope halters, Okay, I think its really cool that you can ride your "bombproof" horse in a piece of string, but NO horse is completly bomproof... Anything can spook them, afterall they are prey animals, but if that horse takes off in a rope halter they have no reason to stop! With a bit it hurts their mouth if you pull hard enough, but with a rope there is no way they are goning to stop just beacause you are pulling on their nose. I know they have those knots, but how well are they honestly going to work??
I ride Sandy in just his ordinary halter and hes fine with it, but that rope halter is thinner and he doesnt feel the pressure as well....

It's easy to dislike something you don't really understand, and it's clear from your comments here you don't truly understand what you are seeing. It's easy to do that. If all you saw were upper level dressage horses with a double bridle and bits and lots of lather, it would be easy to draw the conclusion that perhaps these were horribly trained horses who needed spurs to go and TWO bits to stop.

If you would like me to address each of your "I don't like..." and "I don't get..." above, I'll be glad to, but only if you have an open mind

[Endorphins4u2]

Is there anyone that likes all the big names?

Because I see a lot of "I like Parelli but don't like Lyons or Monty"....

Aren't these NH guys all on the same side..working together with ther horse

Parelli's never hit horses...? but some horses just need a good ol slap to pull their heads in...take a lot of mini's for example, some of them are just devils..

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

I think it's people selling their experience to those who can't wait for it to come naturally..

One could say the same thing about your endorphin tap

I don't think you can buy horsemanship...

Nope, but you can buy training to help you understand what it's all about.

You deffinately won't be prepared for every horse problem doing 1 or 2 clinics...

Nope, and anyone who tells you as such is ignorant or purely out for the bank account, and anyone who listens to someone telling you this is just as ignorant.

However, watching cd's is very safe and you could pick up a few pointers which is still good I suppose..

You still have to have some common sense and realize when you're over your head and need outside, live person help.

[Serendipity Zip]

"Nearly always" is the key word in that. I'm riding a mare who is just NATURALLY stubborn and pissy. Once you give her a smack [after giving her the chance to respond to friendly cues] she straighten's her attitude because she remembers someone is on her, and they aint takin no ****.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by John

The natural horsemanship where they ride a horse in the same afternoon is the type that I am familiar with. It is night and day from what has been described here.

It's not really any different, just a different timetable with different results for different reasons. Yes, NH techinques can have an unbroke, wild horse willingly and happily accepting a rider and even w/t/c around a ring - I've seen it. However, it doesn't mean the horse is trained. There is a LOT more to it than just getting on and w/t/c. There WILL be holes in these horses' one day crash course training, as it is just mentally and physically impossible for any creature to learn and absorb all that in formation in 24 hours (often just a few hours) and not, the next day or the next week, decide to see if there are other answers out there. This means there will be the balking, perhaps some spooking, maybe some bucking, etc. It doesn't mean the crash course failed, it's just animal nature that only so much can be absorbed and retained at once.

The really good horsemen can continue to work these horses, read them on a minute by minute basis and see when the horse is thinking "Hmmm, the right answer yesterday was to move forward when leg pressure was applied, let me see if moving backward is (also) a right answer" and can react quickly and calmly to let the horse know "No, forward was the right answer, trust me, you don't want to go backwards".

[missy'sbabydoll]

i agree. people take things way to far. as many of you know i help with a horse rescue and i can't tell you how many horses come there so confused with self taught nautral horse trainers it's not funny. not only that but my personal opinon of pat parelli is not that great. everyone raves that he won a reining champ. on a mule with no bridle. personally i think it's pretty disrespectful to people who work so hard and make fun of them. if he is such an understanding person why didn't he condisder the feelings of the riders. just my opinon. i think a lot of it is great it has just snowballed to big.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

Is there anyone that likes all the big names?

Because I see a lot of "I like Parelli but don't like Lyons or Monty"....

Aren't these NH guys all on the same side..working together with ther horse

I bet there's not a single person here who truly likes all these guys. It might not have anything to do with technique, but personality as well. I like PNH a lot. I like Lyons, but for different reasons. I like Anderson and Reis just fine. I DO NOT like Roberts - too many hypocritical words vs actions, ie the war bridle, for me to believe that he truly, honestly, deep down, has the horse's best interest at heart.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by missy'sbabydoll

i help with a horse rescue and i can't tell you how many horses come there so confused with self taught nautral horse trainers it's not funny.

That is the incorrect application of a system you are seeing the results of. If you were to see the correct results, I'd bet you'd have a different story.

Done correctly, every discipline/method that is humane is good. Done incorrectly, everything that is good can be turned to evil.

It's the same with trimming feet, or application of Natural Balance shoes. People will bash Pete Ramey's method because they saw a few horses who were lame all the time, trimmed by someone purporting to follow his methods, but who in reality were putting their own spin on things and not truly reading the foot. Folks applying Natural Balance shoes can do so all day long, but if they never really understand the trim that must precede it, it will be easy for the horse owners to say the NB shoes are terrible and make the horses lame.

[cowgirlnat]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Noooo, the beginning stage is the finger wagging! The end stage, if the horse just doesn't get it/is ignoring you/is advancing instead of retreating is a hard enough swing of the rope so that the snap is making contact with his nose.

Sorry...I didn't mean to imply that you just start off wacking the horse. But the average horse doesn't pick up the wiggle immediately and it takes some force to get the point across. At least it did with my horse.

Universally I think that all trainers can agree with the start small then get big each and every time. Every time you ask your horse to do something you ask as gently as possible, then ask a bit harder, then demand they do it. Otherwise you end up with a dead sided, hard mouthed, pushy horse.

The first time I asked my horse to move his hind end away from me when I had him tied I eventually had to use all my weight to push him out of the way, but I had started out with a hand wave. Everytime I asked I started with the hand wave. Now all I do is wave my hand at his rear and he moves it (sometimes I snap my fingers if he's not paying attention). But if I go out tomorrow and he doesn't move it. I'll give him a little poke. If he still doesn't move it he gets a smack on the rump. If the horse is still learning I won't smack them unless the movement was dangerous or extrememly disrespectful. But if it's something he's trained to do and has done before, I'm not gonna go back through all the steps.