[Bernardo]

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

It has to be approved, it will be there soon..

Oh okay! Good stuff, can't wait then ahah!

[PeggySue]

OK emailed Endo the Road to the HOrse info and this is what he says:

Hiya,

Believe me, it's not thru a lack of trying. I have sent in my clinician application and they have it. It will just take people power to get them to listen..

The marketing group has their own clients participate in the RTTH and there is a lot of politics involved. Clinton Anderson, Stacey Westfall and a few others. They make money off these clinicians selling DVD's and such, they won't want someone like me coming in there showing them up, especially when I don't need to do the religious round penning and NH tactics they all use..

The only way in is thru letters to Tootie Bland because the are also all about ticket sales and MONEY rules everything.

I promise you one thing though, I'll only need one shot...

so let's all start emailing Tootie at http://www.roadtothehorse.com/contact.html and see if the public can't help to get him in !!! although I am sure they will say he is not "natural" horsemanship which honestly how natural are pool noodles and bells or chain saws!!!

[Bernardo]

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

So I finally looked at that picture and wow! That's a big facility! Bet its fun to try and walk around :S

[dotgotcalm]

Originally Posted by PeggySue

coming in late but
Maybe you shoudl LISTEN and watch this one

I never said that I had a problem, I don't, with what he's doing only that I have a problem with it being available on a forum like Youtube where any idiot who fancies himself a horse trainer can see it being done. Where Endo and I don't agree is on the intelligence, and skill level of his potential audience. After 40+ years in the horse business working with horse owners of all skill levels I'm convinced that most owners do not have and will never have the feel for a horse that it takes to know how and when to use something like the Tap. If it's as easy to do as it appears then I have zero doubt that they'll abuse it just as some abuse the round pen. Instead of running to the round pen every time they encounter a problem they don't really know how to handle I can see them Tapping the horse. Horse won't stand still in the cross ties....Tap. Horse won't load on the trailer....Tap. Horse just isn't paying them enough attention....Tap.

As I said earlier, I no longer care so much whether the owners get injured by their own foolish actions but I do hate to think about the horses that might suffer. I realize that Endo is trying to get his message out to other trainers and the more knowledgeable horse owners but from reading the comments posted on Youtube about his videos it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of beginners and kids watching his stuff. That, to me, is scary although, I can't honestly say how else he could have gone about getting the word out.

I think some of you know that I'm officially retired from training but I've been unable to walk away from it completely because I was one of the very few trainers in my area who would tackle something like a confirmed rearer. I still get at least one phone call a week from someone looking for help with a problem no one else wants to take on so, Endo has my attention. If he's found a way to do what needs to be done in a way that's safer for both the horse and the handler I want to know about it. More importantly, I'd like for the other trainers in my area to know about it so I can have some peace. What I don't want to see happen is for my phone to start ringing off the hook with calls from people who've abused or misused the Tap and created more problems for their horse.

[Kitari]

I would def. Try to go see Pinky participate.

Hey pinky you never did get fotage of the vet facility! XD

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by dotgotcalm

I never said that I had a problem, I don't, with what he's doing only that I have a problem with it being available on a forum like Youtube where any idiot who fancies himself a horse trainer can see it being done. Where Endo and I don't agree is on the intelligence, and skill level of his potential audience. After 40+ years in the horse business working with horse owners of all skill levels I'm convinced that most owners do not have and will never have the feel for a horse that it takes to know how and when to use something like the Tap. If it's as easy to do as it appears then I have zero doubt that they'll abuse it just as some abuse the round pen. Instead of running to the round pen every time they encounter a problem they don't really know how to handle I can see them Tapping the horse. Horse won't stand still in the cross ties....Tap. Horse won't load on the trailer....Tap. Horse just isn't paying them enough attention....Tap.

I have to agree with you. I don't think MOST people would be able to accomplish this technique efficiently unless they had MANY one on one sessions with a professional. And even then, it would still take a lot of practice, just like with any practice.

It's kind of like how people can abuse rolkur or round penning. Well, actually, people abuse whips and double bridles and even rope halters and stud chains.

I don't disagree that he can post things on youtube. I think youtube can serve its purpose and that getting yourself out there is important. However, I think you should do so in a professional light and make sure you throw your disclaimers out there. I think an important thing to note with Endo's method is that people need to be aware of when this...Tap(?) method should be used and on what horses.

I also feel both the tap and join up methods serve somewhat different purposes as far as the situation goes. For example, round penning might strengthen the trust your horse has in you, but it will not SOLVE all of its problems. However, when your horse has learned that you DO have the ability to control his movements and direct his attention, things to tend to roll forth a bit easier than before. I think round penning is also a start off point that lets your horse know that "yes, I am listening to you". I think round penning can be good at different points in the training, and then the tap method is good at the other points in the training, depending on the horse and primarily the situation and environment.

But, really the same thing goes for NH people as well. Some of the things they market are things you really could do and make youreslf like, the carrot stick or Tellington Jone's "wand". It's all in the business. If you want to be a trainer and it is the only thing you do for a living, well, you gotta make what you can without crossing ethical boundaries.

The marketing group has their own clients participate in the RTTH and there is a lot of politics involved. Clinton Anderson, Stacey Westfall and a few others. They make money off these clinicians selling DVD's and such, they won't want someone like me coming in there showing them up, especially when I don't need to do the religious round penning and NH tactics they all use..

Why do you speak of NH tactics as if they are silly and useless? They may not be as physical or macho but it's certainly worked for me. I'm a huge advocate of "round penning", simply because it has worked for me and really strengthened the connection with my horse. I don't think it's silly or sissy or whatever you'd like to think of it (not saying you do think that way, but that it comes off that way). I think if it works for your horse, then do it. I don't think EVERYONE should be doing it, but if it works, by all means continue what is beneficial to you. I personally feel round penning is easier to do than the tap method, particularly if you are working with large animals and you are small, like me. I don't know how to do the Tap method, but JUST from the videos, these are the assumptions I am making.

To be quite honest, I THINK the principles of round penning and the tap method are basically the same, correct? A system of pressure and release that the horse can understand in order to make the horse more submissive/cooperative, and to establish yourself as leader, right? I guess the tap method and round penning are just different ways of achieving this goal, and whichever one works best for you depends on the individual and the horse.

My main point here, is that I just find it is rather unethical/wrong to be saying "that training method is wrong" or "this training method is wrong". Round penning is not wrong. It is not useless. And neither is the tap method. It just all depends, and we should all have respect for each other as trainers and leave trainers to their own methods as long as it is not doing harm to the clients or the horses.

Originally Posted by Bernardo

I don't know who would call his ways cruel ahha. Silly people!! Horses flip themselves over like that themselves when they are being silly. I wouldn't want to let something like that go on for a long while, the horse would quickly learn that rearing is unacceptable. Honestly I'm sorry my life is more important then me hurting my horse a little bit . Not to mention what Endo does probably doesn't even hurt them one bit. Heck I've seen someone flip a horse on its side because it actions were dangerous and unacceptable, did it hurt the horse? I doubt it, maybe a tiny bit, but not more then getting bit out in the field.

I beg to differ, actually. Not entirely, but I do want to point something out. It is just my personal opinion that if someone not experienced with horses saw his video and didn't know what he was doing, the only thing they would be seeing is a man bringing a horse to the ground. They probably wouldn't even know there was a way to bring a horse to the ground without hurting it either, so them waiting and saying "hmm, well maybe this isn't hurting the horse" is likely a thought to come second.

So, in someone's mind who is not experienced with this technique (like me) and has seen it very rarely, the first thing that registers into their head is: horse on the ground. Just like if you saw two kids playing outside, and one brought one kid to the ground, you can't decipher right away if they are just playing or if they are truly fighting. You can only tell once you get down there and ask, but your first response is to probably go on the defensive and want to separate the two to make sure nothing did happen.

Just wanting to say, that maybe it's not silly for people to think that maybe he was hurting the horse. We all know it's not GOOD to judge, but it is kind of unavoidable when we see something so different like that, and in any other case, would probably be related to pain.

[PeggySue]

have you guys BOTHERED to read his disclaimer on there?? and honestly by watching the video you can't tell what he is doing to bring the horse down although I know because I have seen it done

[I LUV BESS]

I think Paul's methods are pretty good i liked watching the videos quite clever really...

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by PeggySue

have you guys BOTHERED to read his disclaimer on there?? and honestly by watching the video you can't tell what he is doing to bring the horse down although I know because I have seen it done

Which disclaimer? I am only talking about the videos that the OP posted. Sorry, I should have made that clear. When in my posts I refer to "the videos" I mean the ones the OP posted.

I'm very aware that I can't tell what he is doing in the video. I NEVER once said he certainly is doing one thing or another or that his practices are wrong. I clearly stated in a previous post that I didn't have a good understanding of what he was doing, but that what I DID see or from what I could ASSUME, so and so is what I thought--that was kind of my disclaimer. I was just giving my personal analysis of something based on what I saw FOR NOW. I also implied that if I could learn more about what he is doing, then my opinions and thoughts are very likely and willing to change. I'd of course be very willing to learn what he is doing, but no one has said so.

[PeggySue]

if you actually got o HIS SITE or the YOUTUBE he has a disclaimer on the info on the video

Because of the level of experience needed "Hybrid Horsemanship" techniques are specifically aimed at trainers and not for the average or beginner horse person.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!
I am a trained, well respected, professional with 20 plus years of experience and even then sometimes I get my butt hurt. My videos are for entertainment purposes only and are not intended for training nor should be replaced for a professional trainer.
Hybrid Horseman, Paul Williamson or Endospink, will not be responsible for any injuries incurred after viewing his videos or web site and trying this at home. ENDO SAYS: RIDE RESPONSIBLY, WHEN YOU ARE ENJOYING YOUR HORSES, USE PROTECTIVE GEAR!

P.S., Please stop asking, NO, the TAP does not work on your mother-in-law.