[Lopinslow]

if she was shown and trained heavily for LL, that could be part of the problem. I've known a few that won a boatload of money in LL and were TERRIBLE to start under saddle. They have learned to carry themselves on a LL and now someone is on their back telling them what to do, and they don't like it! friend of mine had one many years ago, won EVERY single big/nationally known LL class she went in,, we couldn't get that SOB ridden for anything that next year.

step back and take a look to see if she is physically and mentally ready to be ridden. as long as her tack fits and there are no chiro/vet issues, she simply sounds spoiled and sour in her attitude, and needs to be MADE to go forward. i use spurs on my horses, but with only 2 months of riding and the bad attitude, i would opt for a crop instead of spurs at this point. ask her to move forward, and if she doesn't, give her a tap with that crop. if she still doesn't respond, increase the taps until you DO get a response.

I'm guessing this mare is also spending a lot of time inside, the normal show horse treatment ( not out in weather that isn't perfect, etc ) so, time for an attitude adjustment! as a friend of mine calls it " SD Rope horse therapy"
leave her out, 24-7, no matter what the weather, no fly sheet/spray, etc. show her just how GOOD her little show horse life is.

I also do ride my 2's, IF they are ready, but don't spend long periods riding. many times it's a 10-15 minute ride, and i might do that twice per day if we are really trying to work on something. and I agree with the trainer, that IF she is mentally and physically ready, at 2 months she should be walk, trot, lope ( not expecting any collection, headset, etc, just comfortably loping ), a little moving away from legs, back, etc.

[lilrider]

Have you had her checked for pain? Saddle fit, teeth, her back in general, legs and joints, etc.

For the saddle fit you need to make sure that it is clearing the withers with and without weight. For the width if the saddle is too narrow there will be contact at the bottom of the bar and not at the top. If it is too wide there will be contact at the top of the bar and not the bottom. If it is correct there will be even contact. You also have to check for bridging as well as the bare flare. Here is a good website to help make sure your saddle fits properly. Now this is not a jab at you or your trainer, I have known lots of people who think their saddle fits well when in fact it doesn't fit at all and is causing much pain. Also a saddle will fit differently as a horse gains proper muscle or loses muscles in their back if they are put in or taken out of work for an extended period of time.

http://www.horsesaddleshop.com/howshoulifit.html

For her teeth, have you had them checked? Do you ride iwth a bit? She may have wolf teeth which would make it painful for her.

For her back I would have a good chiropractor come out and evaluate her, she may need some adjustments.

Also I would have the vet come out and do an all over basic physical exam. Check out her joints, flexion, etc. Perhaps she is sore or not ready to be ridden so early.

Personally I think 2 is too young to be ridden. I really think that 2 lessons a week on a 2 year old (who I am guessing is not that much over age 2) is far too hard. She may be telling you that herself by refusing to work.

Also consider this. I know your trainer is a WP person and this is how they normally do it and if a horse won't go at 2 they usually sell them. This is due to futurities and such. But if you really like this filly I suggest keeping her and throwing her out in the pasture until at least late summer or fall but preferably until age 3. I don't start mine before age 3 personally. You might find quite an attitude change. I know that my mare as a 2 year old could have not handled being ridden at age 2. At age 3 she barely handled it. Age 4 she was better. Age 5 she was wonderful. Now at age 7 with very minimal riding mind you she is doing amazingly (I am in college so the past three years I have been gone all school year and only back in the summer but still couldn't ride a ton with a full time job). She has been off for over 6 months and I hopped on her yesterday. She did everything I asked of her, no bucking no fussing etc. And she is a bucker and a fusser lol (she's also a thoroughbred). I mean I would count her as still a somewhat green horse even at age 7 (tsk tsk on me lol ) and compared to when she was 3 and I started her she was the most willing I have ever seen her and thats with 6 months off just being a lawn ornament.

Now I am not telling you to wait for age 7 of course, but I wouldn't be so quick to sell. Give her some time off, do a lot of groundwork and just playing around on the ground with her, then give it another go.

[jackiesbabyjet]

Originally Posted by Lopinslow

if she was shown and trained heavily for LL, that could be part of the problem. I've known a few that won a boatload of money in LL and were TERRIBLE to start under saddle. They have learned to carry themselves on a LL and now someone is on their back telling them what to do, and they don't like it! friend of mine had one many years ago, won EVERY single big/nationally known LL class she went in,, we couldn't get that SOB ridden for anything that next year.

step back and take a look to see if she is physically and mentally ready to be ridden. as long as her tack fits and there are no chiro/vet issues, she simply sounds spoiled and sour in her attitude, and needs to be MADE to go forward. i use spurs on my horses, but with only 2 months of riding and the bad attitude, i would opt for a crop instead of spurs at this point. ask her to move forward, and if she doesn't, give her a tap with that crop. if she still doesn't respond, increase the taps until you DO get a response.

I'm guessing this mare is also spending a lot of time inside, the normal show horse treatment ( not out in weather that isn't perfect, etc ) so, time for an attitude adjustment! as a friend of mine calls it " SD Rope horse therapy"
leave her out, 24-7, no matter what the weather, no fly sheet/spray, etc. show her just how GOOD her little show horse life is.

I also do ride my 2's, IF they are ready, but don't spend long periods riding. many times it's a 10-15 minute ride, and i might do that twice per day if we are really trying to work on something. and I agree with the trainer, that IF she is mentally and physically ready, at 2 months she should be walk, trot, lope ( not expecting any collection, headset, etc, just comfortably loping ), a little moving away from legs, back, etc.

Ok finally somebody makes sense.. We never showin her in lunge line at all.. We started her on the lunge line at one just as any normal horse. My mom got really sick last year so she didnt get worked heavily on the lunge line like some of my trainers babies.
She may get once or twice a week of lunging for like 30mins thats all.. She was never over worked. We ground drove her and did everything with her.
My trainer thinks this personality could be genectic so she could have been born with this sour attiude.
When we do ride her just in lessons with our trainer, she doesnt get worked that hard since we have a hard time making her go.
She does live the show horse life she stays in her stall most of the time and hates being outside. She gets about 4hours of pasture time a day and lives the pampered life.
I might try reccomding to my trainer about putting her bratty self in a pasture for a couple days.
Only thing is my trainer doesnt have the pasture room or space to do that.
Ok I will ask her about using a crop. The spurs she does use our english spurs turned down.

[farmeress]

A two year old, even with two months riding, will not have the back muscles yet to really carry weight while properly engaging her back or hindend without some muscle strain.

I would worry about how this type of riding will affect the youngsters' body in her older years.
We have seen/heard the stories of now older althletes of their non-healing injuries substained because of early training in a competitive sport like gymnastics, figure skaters, dancers.

Of course she will be resistaint to anything that will make her uncomfortable.

I am sorry but using a whip in the manner you describe, spurs and kicking the youngster is not a good beginning to her training.

What you do NOW in the beginning of her riding will affect everything you do in the future when training.

This is the time to set up a foundation in her training program.

How you approach a problem will carry over for years to come.
If she learns to resist and ignore legs and whips now, I would not like to think of what will happen later when she is stronger/older and does not want to do something.

She will not go forward because it is physically painful. Learning that riding is a painful/uncomfortable/ / at such an early age could make for a very miserable horse in the future.

Nevermind that the physical aspect of this kind of training that could be harmful to the body, the mentallity of the young horse is being developed during this type of training.

It is up to your sister to dictate what she beleives is right for her young horse and at what age she should start riding her, not the trainers. It is the trainers job to PROPERLY start the horse when the owner calls.

To be honest....any trainer resorting to whips/spurs/kicking a young newly backed horse to a point where the horse kicks out in frustration or pain would not be working with my young ones.

[Red roan rider1]

So this is the scenario: The trainer cannot figure this horse out and is telling you basically to write her off as being stubborn and sell her. Said trainer cannot make the horse move forward. Problem horse? Maybe. Wrong trainer, Likely. If you like your horse and your trainer does not, I'd start searching for a different trainer! In the meantime, give the horse a rest. Kick her out into the pasture and let her be for awhile.

[jackiesbabyjet]

Originally Posted by lilrider

Have you had her checked for pain? Saddle fit, teeth, her back in general, legs and joints, etc.

For the saddle fit you need to make sure that it is clearing the withers with and without weight. For the width if the saddle is too narrow there will be contact at the bottom of the bar and not at the top. If it is too wide there will be contact at the top of the bar and not the bottom. If it is correct there will be even contact. You also have to check for bridging as well as the bare flare. Here is a good website to help make sure your saddle fits properly. Now this is not a jab at you or your trainer, I have known lots of people who think their saddle fits well when in fact it doesn't fit at all and is causing much pain. Also a saddle will fit differently as a horse gains proper muscle or loses muscles in their back if they are put in or taken out of work for an extended period of time.

http://www.horsesaddleshop.com/howshoulifit.html

For her teeth, have you had them checked? Do you ride iwth a bit? She may have wolf teeth which would make it painful for her.

For her back I would have a good chiropractor come out and evaluate her, she may need some adjustments.

Also I would have the vet come out and do an all over basic physical exam. Check out her joints, flexion, etc. Perhaps she is sore or not ready to be ridden so early.

Personally I think 2 is too young to be ridden. I really think that 2 lessons a week on a 2 year old (who I am guessing is not that much over age 2) is far too hard. She may be telling you that herself by refusing to work.

Also consider this. I know your trainer is a WP person and this is how they normally do it and if a horse won't go at 2 they usually sell them. This is due to futurities and such. But if you really like this filly I suggest keeping her and throwing her out in the pasture until at least late summer or fall but preferably until age 3. I don't start mine before age 3 personally. You might find quite an attitude change. I know that my mare as a 2 year old could have not handled being ridden at age 2. At age 3 she barely handled it. Age 4 she was better. Age 5 she was wonderful. Now at age 7 with very minimal riding mind you she is doing amazingly (I am in college so the past three years I have been gone all school year and only back in the summer but still couldn't ride a ton with a full time job). She has been off for over 6 months and I hopped on her yesterday. She did everything I asked of her, no bucking no fussing etc. And she is a bucker and a fusser lol (she's also a thoroughbred). I mean I would count her as still a somewhat green horse even at age 7 (tsk tsk on me lol ) and compared to when she was 3 and I started her she was the most willing I have ever seen her and thats with 6 months off just being a lawn ornament.

Now I am not telling you to wait for age 7 of course, but I wouldn't be so quick to sell. Give her some time off, do a lot of groundwork and just playing around on the ground with her, then give it another go.

We just don't anywhere were we could throw her in the pasture for 3 years and then try to ride her. She stays at a boarding barn on full care and that is around 600 a month. We just can't afford to board a baby that doesnt get riddin.
I wish we could just turn her loose and let her be a lawn ornament.
Thats why my trainer saids we might be able to trade her to a friend of our for a nice zippos sensation colt he wants to sell.
Sweet has all games and cow breeding and thats what we wants in his barn. and he has the pasture to put her outside and work with her.

[Lopinslow]

If she's physically mature, moving foward shouldn't be painful. many of todays 2yr old stock horses are capable of being started as 2's, IF the rider/trainer/owner does it lightly, and knows when to back off, or even quit for a while.

If this was MY horse, i would stop riding her for now and kick her out in the field for a month or 2. let her see how good her life COULD be if she isn't such a witch, and in a month or so, she may be mentally ready to go back to work.

I also question how good this "trainer" is. he can't get her to move forward? can't figure her out? and cares more about selling you a yearling HE has for sale?

i would turn her out for a bit, see if her attitude improves. if it does not, turn her out for a little while longer, try again and if she's still a rotten witch, then do you really want a horse that fights you all the time?

[jackiesbabyjet]

Originally Posted by Red roan rider1

So this is the scenario: The trainer cannot figure this horse out and is telling you basically to write her off as being stubborn and sell her. Said trainer cannot make the horse move forward. Problem horse? Maybe. Wrong trainer, Likely. If you like your horse and your trainer does not, I'd start searching for a different trainer! In the meantime, give the horse a rest. Kick her out into the pasture and let her be for awhile.

Yeah thats pretty much. My trainer has been my trainer for 13years now..
I trust her a option on horse training.
We just have no where to throw her in the pasture for a year..
Thats why im sooo despair for a little help on how to fix her.
She is boarded at a facilty where they dont have pasture board and is the only boarding place near me. I have nowhere were I can put her in the pasture to let her grow up because I would be waisting my money on those heavy board fees.

[jackiesbabyjet]

Originally Posted by Lopinslow

If she's physically mature, moving foward shouldn't be painful. many of todays 2yr old stock horses are capable of being started as 2's, IF the rider/trainer/owner does it lightly, and knows when to back off, or even quit for a while.

If this was MY horse, i would stop riding her for now and kick her out in the field for a month or 2. let her see how good her life COULD be if she isn't such a witch, and in a month or so, she may be mentally ready to go back to work.

Ok you read all my post that I have nowhere to turn her out in a for a month or two.
She really is a little witch. She doesnt have a nice attiude about anything.
Its really make it or break it now.

[Lopinslow]

if she doesn't have a good attitude about anything, then WHY KEEP HER, as it is never going to do a complete turnout.