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Discuss Horse is Lame!!! Please help - bad farrier job? at the Horse Health forum - Horse Forums.

Lasair had his second shoeing/trim yesterday. He is my 3 yr old OTTB. He gets ...
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    Horse is Lame!!! Please help - bad farrier job?

    Lasair had his second shoeing/trim yesterday. He is my 3 yr old OTTB. He gets front shoes only. Yesterday, he was shoed/trimmed at 10:00AM, then I put him away and gave him the rest of the day off to get used to his new feet. (I usually work him every day) Today, I do my usual routine to go work him. I trot him around in his pen a couple laps in each direction to check for any obvious problems, I pick his hooves, groom him, and gear him up.

    We walked through the backyard and got to the gate. A couple of steps after he walked onto the concrete driveway, he stumbled real bad. I watched him walk the next few steps and he stumbled real bad again. Then he started holding up his back legs and did the whole "walk on eggshells" routine. He is in OBVIOUS pain. ALL the signs of intense pain in both rear legs.

    I think I know what's wrong with him...but I need back up.

    Please look at these pictures and tell me what you see. I'm so worried about my baby, I'm on the verge of tears.

















    Dawn.

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    Ugh, a very incorrectly trimmed hoof? Do you know which pics are of which hooves?

    The hind hooves (look like hinds to me anyway) have a very bullnosed profile indicating a negatively angled coffin bone.

    It also appears to me that the toe callous has been rasped into deeply (most likely a huge source of the pain you're seeing).

    He looks good to short in the toe in all feet and long in the heels creating a boxy foot. Also rasped into the callous on all feet.

    What is your theory?

    I honestly feel sorry for the poor horse from just seeing these few pics.

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    The bottom two pictures (after the picture of both rear legs) are the left. The others are all on the right. He's more in pain on the right than on the left.

    My theory - the farrier broke my horse! I don't know the technical details and I don't know how/what exactly he did to break him. But I DO think that his trim is DIRECTLY related to Lasair being in tremendous pain in both rears. I'm sooo upset. I left him voice mails on his home and work phone. When he didn't call me back in 20 minutes, I actually went to his house and rang the doorbell 4 times. He finally came out. He then came to look at Lasair and tried his best to convince me that he didn't do ANYTHING wrong and that he "barely took anything off, so it COULDN'T be his trim job".

    I'm soooo frustrated. I know it's him, but I don't know how to prove it because I don't know any terminologies or anything...you know what I mean? All I know is that my baby is in pain and it looks like he cut too much off or something and so when my horse walked onto some rocks and the concrete - it set off the whole pain thing.

    I called my vet, it's 8:24PM here...she hasn't called me back. I'm just sooo upset and I'm only able to hold it together because I'm trying to figure out what to do to help Lasair....
    Dawn.

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    Well he's obviously cut into the toe callus, that in and of itself can/will cause extreme pain and can even lead to other issues as well.

    It's not about how much you take off, it's about the balance the hoof is left in and how much you took off of specific parts in some cases.

    It also looks as if there was no roll put on the outside wall.

    Any pictures of the front feet?

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    I'll go take pictures of his front feet right now - Give me 5 minutes.

    Can you do me a huge favor and show me what you see and what the technical terms are? I can't prove to people that it's the trim job that's what's hurting him when I sound like I don't know what I'm talking about. I feel so helpless. I know it's the trim, but I don't know how to express it properly...so then people just brush me off and try to tell me it's NOT the trim.....

    Ok...I'll be right back.
    Dawn.

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    I'm really not the one to give you the 'technical' jargon.

    Basically this is what I'm seeing that's telling me what's wrong. The red line in the first picture shows the profile of the hoof wall in the toe area. It should be straight from coronary band to ground. You can see that it bows out in the middle, indicating that the coffin bone is not sitting correctly. The back of it is lowered, front raised.



    In this picture, the red arrow is pointing to an area that has obviously been rasped. This is where the toe callus is, which in essence protects the sensitive tip of the coffin bone. The green line shows the height of the heel and also the very awkward path of the bars which appear to be laid over as well.


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    Ok - here are his fronts. He doesn't seem to have any issues with the fronts at all.

    Right Front:





    Left Front:



    Dawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn View Post
    I'm really not the one to give you the 'technical' jargon.

    Basically this is what I'm seeing that's telling me what's wrong. The red line in the first picture shows the profile of the hoof wall in the toe area. It should be straight from coronary band to ground. You can see that it bows out in the middle, indicating that the coffin bone is not sitting correctly. The back of it is lowered, front raised.



    In this picture, the red arrow is pointing to an area that has obviously been rasped. This is where the toe callus is, which in essence protects the sensitive tip of the coffin bone. The green line shows the height of the heel and also the very awkward path of the bars which appear to be laid over as well.

    Thank you so much, Dawn, I reeeeaaaly appreciate it.

    I'm so distraught. Am I stupid for absolutely sobbing over this? I spoke with my vet and she will be here at 11AM tomorrow. I gave him some bute tonight and will give him some more tomorrow AM. I feel so guilty for letting my farrier hurt my horse. I feel sooo bad that he's in pain.
    Dawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyshtia View Post
    We walked through the backyard and got to the gate. A couple of steps after he walked onto the concrete driveway, he stumbled real bad. I watched him walk the next few steps and he stumbled real bad again.
    He stumbled with his front end or back end?
    Then he started holding up his back legs and did the whole "walk on eggshells" routine. He is in OBVIOUS pain. ALL the signs of intense pain in both rear legs.
    what were the additional signs of intense pain? Was he stocked up? Is there an increased/bounding digital pulse? Is there excessive heat in the feet?
    I think I know what's wrong with him...but I need back up.
    Why?
    There appears to be a long bruise between the lateral toe quarter and the lateral quarter of the hoof, and the "hint" of a bruise of the same type on the medial side too. These bruises were present prior to the trim and the bit of trimming the farrier did, moved them down enough to be exposed. This alone could well be the culprit.
    Doesn't look to me that the farrier over-trimmed these feet. In fact, I'd would have done a bit more clean-up/neatening work to the heels and bars. While a bit of toe callus may have been removed, it was not necessarily over pared. There is plenty of visible evidence that the farrier left the sole pretty much intact and my impression is that he only lightly rasped the edges. You were there, were you paying attention? How much foot did he remove? Did he use nippers on the back feet? How long did it take him to trim one or both of the back feet?

    I agree with Dawn that the feet look to have a somewhat negative plane P3 and this condition too may be contributing. Additionally, there is some coronary band jamming occurring.
    I'm so distraught. Am I stupid for absolutely sobbing over this?
    Yes. Until you know what exactly is wrong, you are over-reacting.
    I left him voice mails on his home and work phone. When he didn't call me back in 20 minutes, I actually went to his house and rang the doorbell 4 times. He finally came out. He then came to look at Lasair and tried his best to convince me that he didn't do ANYTHING wrong and that he "barely took anything off, so it COULDN'T be his trim job".
    How old are you?
    If one of my clients did this to me, they would rapidly become a former client. Why didn't you go over to your vet's house and drag her out to see your horse too?

    Bottom line. If your horse is not sore on dirt,grass and/or sand(and apparently he's not because you stated: "Today, I do my usual routine to go work him. I trot him around in his pen a couple laps in each direction to check for any obvious problems, I pick his hooves, groom him, and gear him up.
    We walked through the backyard and got to the gate."), keep him on the dirt, grass and sand funtil he toughens the feet up. Bute will help reduce the inflammation, but I don't know that it is really necessary. You can buy a can of regular turpentine and a small paint brush and paint the turpentine on the bottom of the foot once or twice a day. That will help to toughen the bottom of the feet up. You can ask your farrier(if he's still talking to you) to put some back shoes and rim pads on the horse.

    Hopefully, the vet will use hoof testers to determine where the pain is located. If any sole pain is exhibited anywhere but at the very front of the toe, then its likely not related directly to the trim. I'll be particularly interested to hear how he reacted when the hoof testers were applied over the bruises.

    Some final thoughts. Don't be suprised if you are in the market for a new farrier/trimmer and that finding one may prove to be difficult. Regardless of your age, you are going to have to learn, and learn quickly, not to overreact or let your emotions run rough shod over your intellect and common sense. Saying things like :" My theory - the farrier broke my horse! " especially when not all the facts are yet in evidence is an example of TSS(Terminal Stable Stupidity) and is something that you really don't want to attach to your name and reputation. Saying something like "I had my horse trimmed yesterday and later on that day he came up sore." and then providing the details without the drama will do the same for you as nectar does for attracting bees.

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    RickB. - thank you for typing out what you saw and sharing your knowledge. I'm sorry I disgusted you so much.

    To answer some of your questions:

    1. He stumbled with his back legs. Basically, when he put his hind leg down onto the concrete, his leg crumpled. Like there was pain he wasn't expecting and it hurt so bad he couldn't hold his weight on it. He caught himself, but only after a few more small misteps as he realized both his hind legs hurts when he put them down. After that, he kept his right rear held up and wouldn't put it down for 2 minutes - holding it high. After 2 minutes, he put it down, but just held it cocked.

    2. Additional signs of pain - refusing to move. He's a 3 yr old OTTB, he usually cannot stand still, but yesterday, he wouldn't move. He stretched his neck all the way out and hung it low, putting all his weight on his front end and refused to move. He would hold his rear legs up - alternating between the two - right is worse, so he'd hold that one up longer and be more timid in setting that one down. When forced to walk, he looked like he was walking on eggshells and you could tell that some steps hurt him more and he'd throw his head up, keep that hoof up, and refuse to move again. He is stocked up.

    3. He didn't take much off the back feet. My question was if even so - he took too much off, or took it off in a way that would cause pain when Lasair walked onto hard surfaces. Lasair was keeping his back hooves pretty trim on his own and my farrier just trimmed the sides and rasped all around. I wasn't sure if maybe Lasair is wearing too much off his back hooves and maybe should have shoes on the rear as well...but my farrier did not think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickB. View Post
    How old are you?
    If one of my clients did this to me, they would rapidly become a former client. Why didn't you go over to your vet's house and drag her out to see your horse too?
    Once again, I'm sorry I disgusted you so much. My farrier lives 3 houses down from me. We see each other all the time (our street is a cul-de-sac) and he has always stressed to me that if my horse came up lame within a few days of a shoeing, that I should call him first before the vet. He's been very hard to get a hold of through the phone lately, and so when this came up, I just walked down to his house to see if he was home and had time to come look at Lasair for himself real quick. I didn't go to my vet's house to drag her out because I knew there wasn't anything she could do anyways last night and I see her every day. She also called me back. She was supposed to come pick me up today at 1:30 - she'll be here at 11 instead to look at Lasair and grab lunch before we go make rounds.

    I realize that it was probably rude to just walk over to my farrier's house "unannounced", but it has always been ok before for trivial matters - and I didn't think this was a trivial matter.

    Lasair was fine in his dirt pen before I took him out, but he stumbled and then was showing pain once he hit the paved driveway. After that, he was in pain well into the night. Less pain in the dirt, but still a lot of pain. On the concrete, he would flat out refuse to move and would hang his head real long and low. When he would walk, he would do so *very* gingerly with stumbles of pain, following with throwing his head up, eyes rolling, and trying to keep his hind hooves up - it was sad watching him switch painfully from one hind to the other - both hurting...but it'd be too much to keep one held up for too long cause the other was suffering then. Yesterday, we only made it out to the driveway, then turning him around and back to his pen. When turning around, he would keep his hind legs completely still and just pivot, turning on his forehand - he has never done this before either.
    Dawn.

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