[Sandra-A1]

Here are 2 VERY informative & enlightening web sites that I hope my fellow forum members find helpful and enjoy! :

Myths and Wives Tales of Feeding Horses

Horse Feeding Myths and Misconceptions

[spyro1]

Hmmm, some of them I am willing to listen to & beleive, others, I am sorry, I guess that I am old fashioned and will stick withn what works for me I knwo like for instance the comments on coastal hay, won't feed it because of a bad experience I have had with it, better to be safe than sorry, at least with my horse, I prefer not to feed it. I do howver agree with the bran mash statement, I add epsom salts to mine to acheive teh sand moving out like I need it to. I am somewhat on the fence with the whole too much protein for the youngsters causing problems, when you feed a higher protein, you are essentially feeding higher energy, so that one really doesn't make much sense to me. I have seen too many younguns fed too much protein and are over at the knee with swollen joints. Once the protein levels are backed off, the situation resolved itself. As for lettinga hot horse consume as much water as he wants, nope, sorry, won't do it, he is allowed to have 5 sips of water every 5 minutes while wlaking ot cool down as well, something I have grown up doing and don't want to risk changing my routine, especially down here in South Fl where it gets hotter n blazes hah JMO

[Blistering Winds]

Spyro...on the Energy...Protein is mostly used for rebuilding tissues in an animal. If you take the horse up protein, and nothing else, he shouldn't have "higher energy" because any excess protein get's urinated out.

Starch and sugars are the horse's main source of energy. usually when you feed more protein, starch also goes up in the bag of feed. So, you still end up with more energy.

I"ve personally been on a no carbo diet...boy was I always tired. I can see now, after doing a low-no carb diet where most of my energy comes from, and same with horses.

Plus that point got shoved and beaten into my head this whole semester.

Yes foals on high protein diets can and will have bone growth issues....due to too much building in the body too fast. I don't know why that person wrote that part....I totally disagree with that. I'll have to find a research article that was done that did link the protein to that. But it is also linked genetically as well. So it's a double issue there.

Spyro..I understand your issue with Coastal. We have a horse that had issues with coastal. We don't know if it was just that batch, or all of it. He had a bad spell, almost lost the horse. Ruled out everything except the hay. So the owner doesn't feed it anymore. I personally have not had issues, but ANY horse can have issues with different hays...same as people.

On the bran mash...only thing I could think that would cause a person to think it had a laxitive effect is that if you give it to a horse who's never had it...YEAH, they'll get the runs...plus other issues if left un-treated...

After reading the water section, I'm not sure what to think. My horse, if he's not breathing hard, is allowed to have some water. SOME...not free drink. When he stops sweating constantly, he gets to have free choice. I have seen horses DROP after exercising and drinking cold water afterwards. Just like us. If we chug a few glasses of cold water after running, we get a tummy ache.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. Some of the stuff was good, other's I'll disagree on.

[Dawn]

BW I've heard you say it before and I still completely disagree with you. Now if you can explain your reasoning, I might understand. Excess protein is not excreted. Any form of calories that are not immediately used are stored as fat. Yes, the more protein a horse eats, the more nitrogen will be excreted, but that's true whether they are immediatly utilizing it or not.

As for carbs, the reason you feel tired and blah on a low or no carb diet, is because the only type of energy that your brain can use is glucose which comes from carbohydrates. When you do not intake enough carb calories a day to support your basal metabolic rate, your body forms carbohydrates from the fat stores in your body. A bi-product of that process is ketones. They circulate in your blood stream, and once you get to a certain level, you will develop ketosis which is very dangerous and can even be deadly.

So in short, the only safe way to burn fat is through some type of muscular activity.

But anyway, back to my original question, who told you that about protein and what was their reasoning. I know I'd like to be able to eat all the protein I want and just pee it out without storing it as fat.

[Blistering Winds]

Ok...I'm going to pull some info from some sites...actually found one that explained both our sides pretty good and some of the information that I'm missing that wasn't in my notes that makes more sense over all on protein...

One site:
Protein can also be used for energy, but it is not the ideal source. If sufficient protein is provided in the diet for turnover of body tissues, the remaining protein can be broken down into a form that is utilized as energy (glucose or fatty acids). The problem with using protein for energy is that during the process of breaking down the protein molecule, nitrogen is left as a by-product. The body will excrete the excess nitrogen in the form of ammonia through urination. Excess protein results in increased water intake, increased urination, and increased internal heat production. The first two are not generally a problem as long as the horse has adequate water available, although the ammonia can be overwhelming in a stall. The increase in internal heat production is normally marginal, but may cause a problem in a horse already under heat stress. Generally, excess protein is not necessary for the performance horse and in cases may be detrimental. Adequate protein is generally provided by a high quality grass or grass/legume mix hay and a 10 to 12% protein feed eg. Stablemaster Furlong. ( Petalia )

Here's some more info from another site....

Energy -- Energy, the fuel for various body processes, must be digestible and provided efficiently in the forms of carbohydrates and fats. Energy is measured as Digestible Energy (DE) which is expressed in calories (or Mega Calories - 1,000 calories) and represents the amount of energy actually available to the horse in a digestible form. Energy intake above the amount needed to fuel the body for maintenance, production and growth will be deposited as fat. Horses in good body condition receiving insufficient daily energy intake will burn that stored energy. Horses in poor body condition receiving insufficient daily energy intake, however, can quickly develop serious health problems which may lead to death.

Protein -- Proteins are essential to all life. Proteins form the greater part of the muscles, internal organs, cartilage, connective tissues, outer tissues (skin, hair, hoofs, etc.) and the nervous system. Proteins are made up of amino acids, including lysine, the most important amino acid for growth in young horses. Diets for growing horses must include lysine levels of .6 - .7 percent of the total diet. Commercial feeds containing urea, a non-protein nitrogen source, should not be fed to horses, as they cannot utilize non-protein nitrogen as effectively as cattle. Excess protein (the amount fed above the requirement) is broken down into energy and a nitrogen by-product called urea, which is excreted in the urine causing increases in both urination and water intake.

( NebGuide )

[Blistering Winds]

http://www.ianr.unl.edu/pubs/horse/g1350.htm

Here is a good site that I found as well.

[Blistering Winds]

One more I found very informative about protein

http://home.att.net/~horsenutrition101/protein.html

[Dawn]

I understand all that, but I'm still not certain I understand what you're saying. Like your statement of a horse on higher protein not having higher energy. I just can't make sense of that.

Protein is not the preferred source for energy, but it is still essential. If given both, the body will use carbohydrates as immediate energy and store protein as fat.

The last article that you posted confuses me a bit because when you eat protein, it doesn't become muscle. Some of the amino acids in it enable muscle production, but those muscles must be worked for muscle building to actually take place.

[Blistering Winds]

Yeah that last article as I read it more indepth, focused mainly on the 2 amino acids that help build muscles.

I never said that Protein isn't essential. I know protein is needed for the body. I just disagree with the fact that higher protein = higher energy. The body doesn't use protein for energy as efficiently as it does other feeds. If needed, it will use it, but the body is better off burning starch as an energy source because it is easier to absorb as energy, instead of converting the Protein to energy, which takes energy to do, and you have more bi-products from the conversion.

Ok...I can agree that some energy comes from Protein, but in my opinion, not enough to create a "hot" horse so to say. I believe that energy can be acquired more efficiently from other sources with less amounts and cost.

[Dawn]

Oh yes, it is more easily converted from most carbohydrates (not starch though, that's the carb that's most likely going to be stored as fat, but anyway.) It depends on the situation really. If you have a horse that's not getting in any more energy in a day than he's expending (bmr and voluntary activities combined) he'll burn all the energy that's brought in and won't store any fat. Of course, that amount would be impossible to calculate on a day to day basis. If he's taking in too much energy, he'll most likely store the protein as fat. But all in all carbs and protein produce the exact same amount of energy (4 carbs per gram.) Fats on the other hand provide 9 carbs per gram. I personally think the reason that people pair protein with extra energy is because if you have an underconditioned horse and up his protein intake (which is what people usually up when trying to get a horse to gain either weight or muscle) the horse is going to gain muscle mass (paired with excercise of course). Then the horse appears to have more energy because of the extra muscle which allows him to do more. The extra muscle also stores extra energy (in the form of glucose). So then the horse has even more energy running around in his system.