[lpalomino]

2/26/04 . . . Huge Blow to Quarter Horse - Poco Bueno is source of HERDA, devastating genetic disease.

According to an article at 'thehorse.com' . . ."Poco Bueno has been identified as the sireline associated with the brutal affliction known as hyperelastosis cutis (HC) or hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia (HERDA). The disease first surfaced in 1971. Today as more and more breedings double up on the Poco Bueno line through the mating of close-up and distant cousins, more and more cases of HC are showing up."



"There was a time in the past when some in the cutting horse industry referred surreptitiously to HC as the Doc O’Lena affliction because a number of HC horses carried his bloodline. Doc O’Lena was indeed a “prolific carrier,” says Rashmir, but it went beyond that-- It has been established, say Rashmir and Winand, that the recessive gene was passed on to Doc O’Lena through his dam, Poco Lena . . .Poco Lena had only one other foal, Dry Doc, and he, too, was a carrier, according to the researchers. One of the greatest sons of Poco Bueno was Poco Tivio, foaled in 1947. The researchers say that he was a carrier of the HC gene." How does this affect the Foundation Quarter Horse Association and it’s members? Not as severely as one might first assume. As most of you know, at FQHA, we have never promoted a single foundation Quarter Horse bloodline over another. FQHA and it’s official publication, Foundation Quarter Horses Magazine have searched for living descendents of, and promoted all top Foundation Quarter Horse lines, for a number of years now, through the Magazine’s "Best of the Best" series. For this reason, FQHA as a whole has registered a broad spectrum of foundation Quarter Horse bloodlines which do not trace to Poco Bueno . . . Foundation sires like: Bert, Bill Cody, Blondy’s Dude, Blue Valentine, Cutter Bill, Continental King, Driftwood, Harlan, Hollywood Gold, Jackie Bee, Joe Cody, Joe Hancock, Joe, Reed, King, Leo, most King Ranch Sires, Mr Gun Smoke, Mr San Peppy, Oklahoma Star, Pacific Bailey, and Skipper W, just to name a few. In fact, on close analysis of FQHA registered horses, only 2.07% of FQHA horses are either sons, daughters, or grandget of any of the four published carriers (as of 2/26/2004) of HERDA (Poco Bueno, Doc O’Lena, Poco Tivio, and Dry Doc).

[7HL]

Yes its going to be a problem.... Not as big as the Impressive problem. It something that will have to be watched. This idea of line breeding, the idea you can't have to much of a "good" thing is going to eventually bite some breeders. I understand UC davis is working on finding a genetic marker for Herda. When and if they do horse will have to be tested. To be on the safe side I wouldn't breed a mare to a stallion if the both had Poco Bueno in their lineage.

I have a foundation mare that has no "POCO" in her lines. I know we'll breed her someday and we'll be carefull on who it is to.

[Blistering Winds]

We discussed this in depth a few months ago, when it first came out. If not controlled, it Can and WILL be as big as Impressive. But luckly, AQHA has already identified it, and is already in committee about what to do with this gene. Until there is a genetic test for AQHA owners, there isn't much to do. BUT, be prepared. It is coming soon, and from what I've heard, the AQHA isn't going to wait for the Owner's to take the correct steps and NOT breed a HERDA positive horse. AQHA will be putting into place the proper un-registerability as soon as the testing is feasable!

[Cntrysass20]

Exactly BW. I am glad that they brought this to attention quickly. If HYPP had been like this, then a lot of heartache would have been spared. BW, I dont have my handbook (had to order a new one) is it Jan 05 or Jan 06 that AQHA will REQUIRE you to test for HYPP and registration restrictions inforced? I know that some ppl are mad that AQHA is doing this, but I for one, think its about time someone step up and stop this. I never understood why someone would bred a HYPP horse. Just doesnt make sense to me. You go thru 11 months and end up with a heartache. HERDA is a horrible thing too. I cant say which I think is worse, but having my skin peel off would not be to me liking at all. Jessie

[7HL]

I believe the two genenetic problems is the reason or at 1 least on of the reasons, that AQHA got rid of the white rule in May of this year. It will increase the gene pool of elligble quarter horses.

There is no reason why a horse should be breed when it has possitive genetic markers.

There is presently a "rescue" horse at our stable that is HYPP positive. He has lots of problems. I hope to never have to see any horse with HERDA. I am all for seperate registries.

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by 7HL

...There is no reason why a horse should be breed when it has possitive genetic markers....

I am afraid I have to disagree with this statement to a degree... There ARE times when a horse or any other animal can and SHOULD be bred that is positive for the carrier status and sometime even as an affected status.

First off, let me say this... I USED to be a person who said "I'd NEVER breed a dog that did this, had that, etc..." Until I started seriously breeding dogs and studying genetics. I've learned NEVER say never since.

What the genetic's ethics courses are currently teaching people is that you should NOT totally eliminate carriers and sometimes even affecteds from a breeding program because by doing so, you will inadverdently end up introducing worse issues by seriously limiting your gene pool.

The Doberman Pinscher Breed of dog is a great example to use here. They have a high percentage of dogs in their breed that are either carriers or effecteds for the bleeding disorder von Willebrands. It's a clotting factor disorder and depending on the sevarity of the disease, animals with it can be poor healers, all the way ot having NO clotting ability at all (rather like hemophiliacs) and will bleed out.

When the finally got a reliable DNA test available they were told by the genetics organization that they're working with to NOT elminate carriers from the breeing program all together and NOT discount the use of an affected either. BUT to be very judicious on the when and why to use these dogs.'

An affected animal can be bred to an Unaffected animal and you'll get carriers. Those carriers can then be bred to uneffecteds to get unaffected and carriers as well as or you can even breed carriers to carriers, and you'll get certain percentages of both as well as possible affecteds. You can keep weeding down each generation to keep your percentage of affecteds to a minimum if not nil occurance over time.

BUT if you eliminate all carriers from a breeding program you'll lose other desirable traits and may inadvertently introduce OTHER potentially more damaging genetic diseases by limiting your gene pool that much more.

HERDA is not pretty and can be devastating and at this time it's now known how wide spread the issue really is. With as much inbreeding and line breeding that's been done on Poco Bueno, you'd expect to see a much higher degree of expression of the disease, so I would hope that breeders and the AQHA don't jump to drastic measures before more statistical accurate information can be found.

[7HL]

you'll lose other desirable traits

Desirable traits, like color and flash. That is the problem, poeple and breeders have been looking for what "sells" not on improving the breed or at least not taking it down a notch.

I've seen a rise in parrot mouth, and club foot just in the horses that have been brought into the stables where I am at. Maybe it's just a coincidence, that they happen to be registered "pintos", horses of color.

AQHA is on a move to elliminate the Impressive problem. And as sson as they can find the markers for herda, I am sure they will follow suit. The foundation organiztions are very much inline with improving the breed and not taking it down as well.

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by 7HL

Desirable traits, like color and flash. That is the problem, poeple and breeders have been looking for what "sells" not on improving the breed or at least not taking it down a notch.

Uh NO that's not what I wrote nor meant by 'desireable traits'... More along the lines of sound conformation, temperaments, other GOOD health traits, correct breed type, etc... There are ALWAYS pluses and minuses in any genetic combination.

What often happens in an effort to 'eliminate' 100% too quickly, a genetic testable problem is that we LOSE the ability to fight off other diseases or we introduce new ones.

I really wish everyone could have had the benefit of a once in a life time opportunity I had this past year. The International Scientists symposium , can't think of the exact technical term for their organization, I'll have to ask Roger, held their world conference in Seattle, WA. NON-Scientists were able to attend for a fee. Roger arranged for me to spend 3 days there, and I paid for all of the genetic symposiums and this type of mentality was discussed at length. While some of the information was a bit over my head, (I had to go home and look up certain terminology that I was unfamiliar with) the ethics of genetic testing and how to proceed after you find you have either an affected or a carrier, was a VERY much talked about section of the symposium.

Geneticists have all agreed at this point that in order to breed RESPONSIBLY, we can not try to INSTANTLY eliminate all carriers and affecteds in a program because they may also be carrying very important genes that the breed does indeed need.

It's a very fine balance between doing things the right way and the easy way. It would be easiest to eliminate all known carriers and affecteds in a genepool, but you can be guaranteed to open an entirely new set of problems when that does indeed occur.

It has been found to be more effective and less damaging to the gene pool over all to use conservative methods instead.

Remember most genetic diseases are NOT simple recessive gene issues (only on problematic gene in the equation) but rather polygenic (multiple problematic gene issues combined to make one disease). Often times you need those genes to express other DESIREABLE traits as well, so each breeder must carefully consider and weigh out what they'll lose and what they'll gain in carefully controlled breedings of carriers and even from time to time affecteds.

OF Course it is imperative that people are HONEST in their information to other breeders, stud owners, mare owners, people buying foals from them etc... Also remembr that you'll never fully eliminate carriers being eliminated from breeding as there are people who have, do and will continue to, fake information. Substitue horse A as horse B, etc. It happens, especially when breed clubs put absolutes in their registries.

Just a different way of seeing things. I'm pretty sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular issue.

[Blistering Winds]

Both of you have excellent points.

There are great attributes with some "carriers" in breeds. The key is to breed responsibly and to weed OUT the undesirable traits. Good breeders can do this and many do. They hope for a non-positive with the traits they wanted.

Unfortunately, most AQHA people do NOT do this. They don't even consider the fact that HYPP exists and some don't CARE that their horse is seizing in it's stall. They just get the horse through breeding season, and sell off all the babies. THIS is the main reason why AQHA has stepped in to remove registration ability of positive HYPP horses. They had considered not allowing carriers to breed either, but that same reason, desirable traits in a carrier, to be allowed to breed and those that are positive/positive, removed from the gene pool. Eventually, with this breeding and responsible breedings, HYPP can be completely removed from the gene pools of registered AQHA horses. It takes time, but be prepared, in several years, they may have reached the breaking point and remove ALL HYPP, carrier and positive horses from registration. That IS being pushed by some breeders and advocates in the AQHA. But for now, carriers are allowed to breed.

HERDA will follow the same route as soon as a test is available. Positives won't be allowed to breed, though most of the positives die by their 3rd or 4th year anyways. But eventually, if breeders don't take the steps now, HERDA carriers will too, be on the NO REGISTERED list as well.

[7HL]

on close analysis of FQHA registered horses, only 2.07% of FQHA horses are either sons, daughters, or grandget of any of the four published carriers (as of 2/26/2004) of HERDA (Poco Bueno, Doc O’Lena, Poco Tivio, and Dry Doc).

That's FQHA but we're not talking about removing big percenatge of numbers. If not carefull that percentage would increase.