[IIIBarsV]

Chain over the nose as to under the chin is the lesser of two evils. Let's face it- on a baby (or any inexperienced horse), they're going to go up or fly back at least once.

I have used chains. I show Halter once in a while, so the horses are trained to it like they are to any sort of curb bit.

I personally find chains unsafe. If a horse goes up when the chain tightens, there's no easy way to release the pressure that is causing them to go up. Chains can lock up, the release of pressure is not instantaneous. I've seen more than one "chain broke" horse go over backwards when this happens.

At least in a rope halter, you know it's a choice if they try to pull on it or rear. They're testing it. With chain under the chin, when they go up... it's usually because they're scared or the pressure is pushing up against their chin, actually telling them to raise their heads and or rear.

An acquaintance of mine who used to show AQHA halter horses (national and world level, with a row of CR Morris bronzes to back them up) was doing a showmanship clinic on my property one year. They demonstrated using my gelding, who my sister had been showing sucessfully in Halter. He is a soft horse and is chain-trained- meaning when you touch the chain, he drops into a frame. Touch, not yank or jerk.

So my acquaintance asked my sister, who was helping demonstrate, if she could handle my horse. The first thing she did when her hands touched the lead was start yanking- hard- on the chain. He was just standing there quietly before that, so I don't know what she was trying to accomplish. But I had to intervene because she couldn't see that he was about two seconds away from defending himself aggressively, something he's never done.

I just think chains are good for showmanship/halter, when you don't have a rope halter, or over the nose. It's not that one is better because the training methods are better or worse than the other. One is just a different tool to accomplish the same thing in a much more clear and in my opinion safe way for the horse.

When it comes to my own safety, I'm lax. I'm more concerned for the horse than anything else. However I also have common sense. I'm not about to risk flipping a weanling because it won't load in a stock trailer, injuring the horse for life. And it's not like I won't yank on a rope halter hard either.

At least a rope halter is not solid metal.

Although, we must think- there is a greater evil tool out there than the chain or rope halter combined.

It's called a solid metal bosal in rough hands. Holy hematoma.

[CowBarbie]

I also like rope halter, but I guess chains have their place too... to me she doesn't act like a fruit cake ,she acts like a baby who hasn't yet learnt how to be lead ... it gets better at the end but I believe the halter and chain are way to low ... I would start in a smaller area and work up ... if at all possible I would lose the chain ... Good Luck

[Lindsayanne]

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

My ONLY concern and I don't know whether its right or wrong,,,just my thoughts is that I'd not have the noseband and chain so low...

Now that I look at it, I think you are right. We're having halter fit issues. None of the weanling or yearling halters will fit her throatlatch. She's in a 'pony' halter because it will at least buckle on her! but as you saw the cheek pieces are too long. Dang, I own a stinkin' tack store, you'd think one of the bazillion I have in stock would fit the stinker!

Originally Posted by Dawn

Have you thought about doing some exercises with her in the stall to get her mind on you before you even bring her out?

Believe it or not, this is "post-stall work!". On the earlier suggestion, I tried it today and she was perfect in the stall before and after I haltered her, but she just seems to stop thinking when the stall door opens- especially if mom is visible in the other pasture.

Originally Posted by Kissitgoodbye

At the beginning I noticed you turning her toward you. I would of had her turn away from you not towards you when it comes to the circles. Mothers always push young away when they are being scolded. So pulling her towards you and circling might not be the greatest idea.

But at the end you fixed that!

Even if I am pushing her butt away? She's so "bendy" to the left, I usually just get her doing that because she has to think about it, but it's not really hard. So I should be pushing her shoulder out instead? Asking for a pivot or just a turn?

Originally Posted by buck1173

Have a goal when you take her out. I noticed that you don't seem to have a clear plan of where you're going, its kind of aimless wandering circles.... horses catch on very quickly to aimlessness, they're very sensitive to it.... if you have a clear, determined goal to get someplace very specific, the importance of the situation will translate to her... and you'll be less likely to keep looking back at her too... even if you set out a bucket, or tie a rag on the fence, etc.. just 'need to be some place now, we're wasting time, we're going to miss lunch, we must go!'.. not nec. a hurry, just very important... need to get to point a, then b, then c, then back to a...

... pretty cool you posted this!

LOL I was a little nervous. I'm glad most everyone has been kind. That's interesting about "purpose". I've never heard that. Will use it now though!

Originally Posted by Fox Glove

Good on ya Lindsay, as I said before,
I think you have excellent instincts.

I would keep her closer to me
and do the chain under her chin.

Thank you Paula, you know how much I respect your opinion.

I'm never really understood the chain under the chin. Chain over makes sense to me- blocking forward and up, but it always seemed to me like a pop on an under-chin chain would send a horse up (??)

Originally Posted by JBandRio

So yes, catch her misbehavior asap and mean it. Your hand should be right up under her chin so she has no 6" of freedom to start slinging her head around. She had enough room there to bob you in the head if that's the direction she took

I don't remember where it came from, but I've always had the idea in my head that you were supposed to give them rope, and that choking up on the line is a body language thing that makes them want to act up more. Is that not true for babies?



[quote=PaintedRocket;2546410]Hahahahhaha the first part of the video where she is a fruity-loop.. that is the EXACT same thing Brat Baby did to me when she threw a tantrum. I don't have a chain but I snapped on her rope and back her bootay up so fast.. which you let her get away with at first. [quote]

Maybe I'm just not "snappy" enough, or just not strong enough, but I don't feel like my discipline is very effective *at all* with the plain flat halter. A little more with Deb that Kawai, but I'm almost sure without a chain Deb would have gotten loose both the last two times I have worked with her.

Originally Posted by CowBarbie

I also like rope halter, but I guess chains have their place too... to me she doesn't act like a fruit cake ,she acts like a baby who hasn't yet learnt how to be lead ... it gets better at the end but I believe the halter and chain are way to low

Then she has you fooled. Did you read the backstory? 6 months old, 7 days post weaning (dam on grounds and within site) and has been on stall rest all 7 days of weaning. It would be unreasonable to expect her to come out of that stall showing the finer points of her education. This is pretty much the situation where I expect to see her at her worst, and I'm pretty pleased that her worst is just a 2 and a half minute pouty fit.

[SweetSavannah]

Awesome inprovement by the end of the video! Bravo!

Few tips.

1) As everyone has mentioned make the noseband higher

2) As someone else mentioned get her attention before you leave the pen. No way in **** would I ever EVER let a horse go flying through an open gate like that! Its complete disprespect, not to mention dangerous! If I was going to focus on anything it'd be getting her to wait before you go through the gate. Even practice stopping her half way through the gate, backing her up, standing for a bit, then walking her through. Do it a few times so she knows gate = nothing exciting.

3) When she does get away she gets waaay too far away for you to control her effectively. One hand below the clip, one hand half way down the lead. If she pulls like that get her attention by niggling the halter/chain with the hand below the clip, and if she flies off anchor yourself with the hand half way up the lead. Don't ever let her get that far away from you or, as you experienced, she will kick you.

4) When she does get in front of you instead of jerking the chain from near her hidnquarters I would be making her circle around you by poking her in the flanks with the knuckle of your finger. Get her hind legs crossing over a little and make her do a full circle. Stop her circling when she draws level beside you where she should have been. Make her stand there for a bit and then give her a pat.

5) Get a dressage whip, or even better a solid crop/wand. When she stops you need to gently tap her to get her going forward again. You can't just be dragging her forward on the lead. And as someone mentioned look where you're going rather than turning back to look at her.

I personally don't think she needs a chain. she's only young and if you got her focus before you took her out of the yard she would be ok to handle. She's sweet as pie by the end of the video so working her before you take her out should help improve her attitude.

You're doing a good job so far, just needs a bit of tweaking

[bay_blnd jmpr07]

I use the chain under the chin. Mars has a thick skull I think LOL He never got the whole over the nose deal...it did nothing for him. And believe it or not he did not flip over or rear the first time it came into action. He stopped in his tracks and just went "WHOA! What?!" I use a rope and no chain halters no problem now too with him.

With the cirlces I would have gotten more agressive with her making her move her feet faster (after all, she wanted to go faster in the first place instead of the nice easy pace you had in mind).

But I think you handled it well and it worked out

[Bella]

Now that I look at it, I think you are right. We're having halter fit issues. None of the weanling or yearling halters will fit her throatlatch. She's in a 'pony' halter because it will at least buckle on her! but as you saw the cheek pieces are too long. Dang, I own a stinkin' tack store, you'd think one of the bazillion I have in stock would fit the stinker!

With the halter your currently using, tie a square knot in the right side before fastening... I can try to draw a picture of how to do it tomorrow... but we've done this with our weanlings that are in the middle of two halter sizes, and you'd be surprised how much a simple knot shortens that halter up. And it lies flat.. never rubs, plus the way the knot is made, means it doesn't tighten and become impossible to undo.

-Bella

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Lindsayanne

Believe it or not, this is "post-stall work!". On the earlier suggestion, I tried it today and she was perfect in the stall before and after I haltered her, but she just seems to stop thinking when the stall door opens- especially if mom is visible in the other pasture.

Next time, back her out of the stall

Even if I am pushing her butt away? She's so "bendy" to the left, I usually just get her doing that because she has to think about it, but it's not really hard. So I should be pushing her shoulder out instead? Asking for a pivot or just a turn?

"Pulling" her towards you gives her ample opportunity to fling her head into yours and to strike you with a front foot/leg, intentionally or not. She's still small enough that you can pretty much manhandle her away from you if you have to. And, while now might not be the best time to do this, unless it's after she's had a few minutes to think about things and starts behaving like a little lady practice leading her from the right side. ALL horses need to have this done. You have to get comfortable with it, and the horse mentally and physically has to get comfortable with it. Be sure to practice all the same things from that side as well - turning towards you, but not before you practice turning away.

I'm never really understood the chain under the chin. Chain over makes sense to me- blocking forward and up, but it always seemed to me like a pop on an under-chin chain would send a horse up (??)

It mostly depends in the horse, but MOST horses will go up at the first yank of a chain on top of the nose. Why? Because it's not the horse's natural instinct to move away from pressure, it's to move into pressure

I don't remember where it came from, but I've always had the idea in my head that you were supposed to give them rope, and that choking up on the line is a body language thing that makes them want to act up more. Is that not true for babies?

If your hand is there but floating along with her head, she shouldn't know the difference

Maybe I'm just not "snappy" enough, or just not strong enough, but I don't feel like my discipline is very effective *at all* with the plain flat halter. A little more with Deb that Kawai, but I'm almost sure without a chain Deb would have gotten loose both the last two times I have worked with her.

It's not really about strength at all. It's about timing though. And with a chain it's largely about how it's threaded over the nose. If there isn't any slack to begin with, shanking it doesn't have the mental or physical bite - if there were some slack over the nose, there would be the sound of the chain slipping through the metal rings of the halter in addition to the bite. What is a lot more effective for most horses, especially with that little bit of chain that I think I saw hanging down, is to fling the lead rope a bit so that the snap in the lead rope, and in this case that little bit of chain length, "bites" then on the nose. NOT something to do if there's enough chain that it could reach an eye.

[Fox Glove]

It is never too early to start handling and working with a baby.

We had a mare go in the wee hours, imagine that

Doc got there about 5 am just to give a lookie loo,
I had the colt in a halter, leading him up and down the isle.

Doc said, what did you wait for ?

They are sponges, and the sooner things are introducted, the better.

Well handled babies make for well behaved horses.

Paula

[Dawn]

When you opened the stall door did you proceed to take her out? Or did you open the stall door, do some other things, then take her out?

Regardless of how it happened exactly, after her rather explosive exit, she would have been putting her booty right back in that stall instead of getting rewarded by being further away from it.

[Lindsayanne]

Originally Posted by Dawn

Regardless of how it happened exactly, after her rather explosive exit, she would have been putting her booty right back in that stall instead of getting rewarded by being further away from it.

Actually we opened the stall door wide.... and she wouldn't come out. It took a few moments of prompting to get her forward.