[Outlaws_Gunn]

He isn't ridden much. I've just started working with him again. Right now, he gets about 15-20 minutes of work done every day minus saturday and sunday. But, no, he isn't worked hard as he has little done with him in the last year and he's really out of shape. I'm slowly building up to more and harder work. I'm trying to take him slow and figure him out. We haven't gotten along at all until now, and I'm trying to keep him wanting to work by not making him sweat to death.

I'll have the vet check for ulcers. I never thought about something like that. And he's getting his teeth done because they do need it.
Sorrell, I'll try the massage and see how he acts. His saddle fits well, and he bites without it on just as much, so I don't think it's a saddle problem. I'll have to buy a muzzle, so I'm going to try everything else first before I go and do that. I may try the sponge as well, but idk about that. He may just chew on it. Lol. Threehearts, I might as well try out the bat again. I've done everything else.

Thank you all again. You've given me a lot to think about. If there's anymore opinions, advice, suggestestions are appreciated.

[IIIBarsV]

Not fun I've had a few come through for rehabbing like that.... noticeable of which, for this example, we'll use Benner. (Big Grey Nerd).

So, a few basic rules that must not be broken unless you would like to end up with a busted collarbone like I did (found out about the collarbone from my chiropractor xrays- and jees I didn't even go to the hospital or take meds... just GameReady'd it).

- NO TREATS WHATSOEVER. NO HAND FEEDING WHATSOEVER. I don't care who it is... they don't feed that horse anything from their own hand.

- NO FACE HITTING, OR HITTING ANYWHERE IN FRONT OF GIRTH. This says "Hey, let's play!" to a nerd... and this guy sounds like he has poor communication skills. (How does he act with other horses? Biting, playing? My grey took a LONG time to figure out that humans can't keep up with his idea of playing).

- CORRECT IT EVERY SINGLE TIME- BE CONSISTANT, and do NOT let your guard down around him. We'll elaborate on correction types in a second.

- ALWAYS handle him with a halter on securely... and keep him on a short leash. Speak to him when you see his attention wandering.

- Make sure his feed program matches his workload. Also, cut starches out of his diet if he's on anything with it (grains, such as corn, oats, barley). An over-fed, starched-up, high-energy horse does not do well mentally... they develop vices out of boredom and frustration, and biting is usually the first big one in a playful, mouthy-type horse.

- Understand that he is ALWAYS going to be mouthy. Some horses mouth, some buck, some rear, some don't do anything. Ben bites, cow-kicks, rears once in a while, and balks. Wisher would rather rear than bite or buck. Turbo runs off. Dream is her own one-woman-rodeo-bronc when she's not balking, and but will never rear. Chex is a balk/rear/runoff. Tiger bucks. Sugar Bear is a head-butter, cowkicker. Tigger kicks/rears. Gooser bucks. Sunbun balks and tries to buck pathetically [too smooth to constitute bucking], but that's it. (Lovely horse...)

All horses are capable of performing all of these misbehavior types, but usually you'll find that most horses have one preference or another.

(Please note that these are the behavior types I've seen from my own bunch during misbehavior, fresh after a 6 month winter, or before training! I don't own a bunch of nasty horses! hahaha)

My general approach to a biter is to assess diet, turnout, and workload. A high-energy, playful horse needs a low-starch diet, plenty of turnout, and a pretty decent workload to allow them to burn off excess energy, as well as give them something to think about. I'm a believer that horses absolutely think about stuff they've done or had done to them on their free time (after they think about food). They are much smarter than we give them credit for.

Generally, I prefer to avoid the face and neck of a biter for discipline. Especially in a playful horse... going for the face is just ASKING them to bite you again. Horses who are playing will always bite and rear- focussing on anything in front of the girth. Dominant horses who are fighting will do the same.

Everyone write this down and commit it to memory:

When a dominant horse says "We're not playing", they go for the BUM. (Anywhere behind the girth). You will almost never see them try to bite the face when they are dead-serious and mean business.

This is a huge breakthrough in how we deal with disciplining a biter.

HOWEVER!

If you own a horse who both bites and will kick at you, then going for the rear end for biting discipline is dangerous and should not be done with anything less than something "scary" (ie, bag on a stick) or something with a long reach (Ie, lunge whip, broom- no manure forks unless you're desperate, you can cause serious injury with those!). The plastic bag idea is a good one as long as the horse isn't tied up to anything, or isn't a total spook.

So, if your horse isn't a kicker... by all means, go for the bum. If your horse is, as mine was (nerd...), then you'll have to come up with other ideas.

(Except, you don't really have to come up with them, because I'm going to give you a big list).

- Redirect the mind. BIG trick for a mentally bored horse. Block the bite, and ask them to "do" something. (Ie, put their head down to halter pressure, back up, step over, turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand, sidepass, leg-yield...) Ask them several things at once, switch up the sequence (or they anticipate), and REWARD for correct demonstration, stepping out of your space/giving to pressure, etc. Reward the GOOD behavior. Reward them like they won the Olympic Freestyle Dressage! (BUT NO TREATS!!!) This encourages them to look for that positive response from you- horses don't *want* to be attacked, pushed away, etc. They want to be accepted and cared about. (As dictated by normal herd behavior and horse-to-horse communication). Once they clue in that they like (or learn to like) positive rewarding and positive attention from you, they will start trying to get it- becoming more focused and attentive, and repeating the "good behavior" that got them all that petting.

- Ignore or indirectly discipline "bad" behavior (ie, the biting). Ignoring it can be as simple as blocking it/pushing them away, and then using the redirecting techniques listed above. Indirectly disciplining has to be things that do not connect you directly to the discipline- jerking on the rope halter is my preferred choice, but you could also choose to flap something "scary" (plastic bag on a stick) and put their attention on "OMG BAG!" instead of "Bite the human".

A keyword such as "NO" (or "HEY!) can be instilled during indirect discipline... for a negative keyword to be learned, the horse has to have a clear "negative thing" associated with it consistantly. So like... "NO + Jerk-jerk". Every single time a specific unwanted behavior is shown. If you can get the discipline in there almost before the horse is thinking about doing it, all the better- which is why you're on your guard, keeping that leadrope over the crook of your arm, and watching them like a hawk.

With consistency of use of Keyword+Indirect Discipline, plus Redirection and Positive Reward, you can totally reset a horse's behavior and their outlook on life. *Most* of the time, the "normal" bad biters that I've seen have been horses who really wanted to be a part of things, but didn't know how to get the humans to do it- like a little kid who misbehaves to get attention. They just don't know how to ask for it. LOL. Once they figure out that "this" behavior gets them "That" attention, they will quickly learn to differentiate. You will start seeing less of the "unwanted" behavior, and more of the "wanted" behavior.

Why does this work? Because nobody wants to be nasty all the time or get attacked all the time, be you horse or human.

So, let's all repeat:

Direct /Indirect Discipline- negative enforcement.
Ignorance- neutral enforcement.
Redirection- positive/neutral enforcement.
Praise/Reward- positive enforcement.

If you can't use Direct Discipline, then you use Indirect Discipline. You can use Ignorance at any time, with any horse, but you cannot rely on that, Redirection, and Praise only. (Well all right, you MIGHT be able to be successful, but it might take longer for the horse to clue in...)

You know, technically this protocol works really well for a lot of horses and various aggressive misbehaviors- it is a very flexible protocol, so you can taper it to suit each horse individually.

Sooo... if you manage to get him to *not* bite, then we'll talk about how to teach him what he can chew on, and how to accept treats without removing someone's hand. I believe that teaching a mouthy horse what they can and cannot do with their mouth, teaching them how to take a treat properly, is VERY good for their mental state.

[Outlaws_Gunn]

Ok, he only nipped at me a few times today. And they were just that, small nips. His punnishment was backing up a lot and when he stopped lots of praise. So, I think I'm making ground here.

No more treats/ hand feeding. I can and will do that and so will everybody else around here.
I'll stop smacking the mouth, shoulders and neck, too.
He plays pretty rough w 'his pony' (lol). They run and bite, kick, etc. So, yeah, he's prolly trying to get me to play, too.
His feed is suited to his needs, he's a very easy keeper, so it's low starch anyways, and he's on 24/7 pasture and his work is getting built up slowly.
Sometimes, he does try to kick when I lunge him if I get after his bum, so I use a lunge whip.
We did a lot of direction changing today, and worked on disengaging the hind/forequarters.

He was really good today. Very little biting, a few kicks at me (which is why he was lunged til he got frothy), but over all, he seemed to improve.

[Outlaws_Gunn]

Btw, wi put a bridle and snaffle on him today while I groomed and he seemed very content to stand there and move it around in his mouth instead of biting. So, whoever suggested that, thanks. It helped for today, atleast.

[meljean]

If this happens a lot while grooming, try lightening up pressure, or increasing, but if happens all the time, try the following.

Well, this is an old cure, but it works.

Get yourself a large sponge, and a loose fitting shirt in arms, that you don't mind if it gets ruined. Also get a very large baking potato, and I mean a large one. You used to have to boil/bake it but now can do in microwave. Get it steaming hot.

Take the sponge, and soak it and wring out, and while you hold potato on sponge, have someone wrap it on your bicep, with gauze a couple of times so it is secure. Can also use a rubber band. Then put on shirt,start working with horse, and turn so that the potato is toward horse. Make sure the potato is just where he usually nails you, as it will be sticking out, he should get it.

Once he gets that mouthful of hot potato, do not act like anything is even happening. Ignore him, no yelling, laughing, no indication at all that something has happened. In his eyes, you have done nothing, there was no warning that you were going to do anything, so you must be dangerous to bite.

You can also do this on shoulder/hip. Just make sure it is where he will sink those teeth into it. I guarantee he will think twice about biting, I never had one try it but the one time, and they never bit again.

Remember, the key is NO reaction from you, or anyone around you. Horse must think he is punishing self.

[Outlaws_Gunn]

Thanks, meljean. I'm going to try that for sure. Sounds like a great idea.

[threehearts]

I wish I had known about the potato that sounds awesome and like it def would work!!!! My trainer and someone I took him to, to be worked with suggested the bat. I really didnt want to do it, but after what he did to me I really felt like I had no choice. I hope it works out a lot easier for you!!!
Good Luck

[estherj92]

Another idea that a prominent trainer recommends, and that I have personally seen some results with is when they nip or act mouthy, to bump them on the front of their cannon bone with toe of your boot or to allow the toe of your boot to go down over the coronet of the hoof. Don't do it hard at all, just bump it gently. This doesn't hurt them but distracts their attention from you to their leg. I think it is similar to what someone else already suggested doing with a dressage whip. Except this I think is more convenient and done more inconspicuously. Just another idea. Hope it helps!

[Outlaws_Gunn]

Thanks so much everybody.

[MuckMuck]

Originally Posted by Outlaws_Gunn

Btw, wi put a bridle and snaffle on him today while I groomed and he seemed very content to stand there and move it around in his mouth instead of biting. So, whoever suggested that, thanks. It helped for today, atleast.

Your welcome.

Mouthy horses have VERY active minds and really need to interact with their surroundings.
They will mess with just about anything in their reach.
I would suggest that you give this horse as much to do as possible.

If he is in a stall then add handing toys and safe things to put in his mouth OTHER than food or wood posts to chew on.
When you are ready to ride,then get a bit in his mouth and work him.

I have a horse that is here for training for the very same problem and I have him in with an older mare that is over weight and paces.
The mouthy gelding is just trying to keep up with the mare and wears himself out doing so and looses his nip.
He is tired!