[Sue B]

Cyn...I think this has been a common way to measure comparable grass intake to hay. I know that there were similar ideas goig around when I was a kid. The problem is...if one uses the examples that I gave...there is no way that a horse could eat (ok the average horse could eat) 88 lbs of grass in a copld of hours...or even a few...at least it doesn't seem like that.

[Sue B]

I like your points Wyldterv....they make a lot of sense and to sort of support your idea of range horses not suffering the issues that limited lush grasing often produces here is what Jamie Jackson notes in his book on founder.....

His BLM friend that watched partiular herds called Jackon late one nigth to drive him to an area where a herd of about 12 mustangs were "trapped". They had wondered into an area that was fenced off from them....a lush little valley that had a creek, several different mineral licks and lots of green grass. Once inside...they couldn't find the way out...and really didn't need to leave as everything they needed was at their "hoof tips". After 2 days of being there....that was when Jackson's friend took him to see the herd....they were all food sore...Jackson believed all were laminitic....the BLM friend said that in several years of following this herd...none had ever been lame.

So, yes, I believe that the difference between limited areas in which horses are allow to gorge themselves...because they have no reason to move much....and range kept or feral herds in their sparce and more variable area and having to move miles from water to licks to grazing areas makes a huge difference in what they are taking in and how their bodies handle it.

I also know that from the last lamintis surveys that while the national average for lamintis is around 14%....the average for the northeast (with some of the lushest grazing) is 17%.

I also think another factor that comes into play between hay and grass is not so much that we control hay...I have found that generally, once metabolic cases are being treated and are stablized that they can be fed free choice hay with no issues. However, they cannot necessarily graze no matter what. But, the one thing that is for certain about the hay is the NSC levels...no fluctuations....grass is dynamic and therefore sugar levels are always fluctuating according to the needs of the plant. So, what might have been safe levels of sugar one day may not be the next. Naive plants are also much lower in NSC than the many grasses that we have developed specifically for high traffic areas and to produce thick green carpets even in the worst of conditions such as drought or excessive rainy seasons.

[freedom32]

Great thread! Alot to wrap the mind around though lol.
I think you hit it on the head Sue in your last post--grass is static, the levels can change because of many factors, where the levels in hay are fixed at the time of cutting.
*edit to add*
When my horses are turned out on full pasture I still suppliment with hay, because my pasture isn't that great. I feed hay according to how much they want (if they don't eat it they don't need it), and how fat they are/aren't, usually a flake at dinner and breakfast. Not really an exact science I suppose, but who had a lab in the basement test everything!

[3WishesDun]

Hey Sue! I resemble that remark! LOL!
A sort of off topic question. I know that the UK has very plentiful rain and often lush pastures..... What are their laminitis rates? And why do we not have "grass sickness" like they do? And what exactly is "grass sickness"? Is it neurological?

[Sue B]

Oh sure....I can't keep up with what's going on on this side of the bath tub...you expect me to keep up with the other side...LOL

OK...heres a link and the summary statement:
Outside of the UK it resides mostly in norther European countries and scattered areas throughout Europe. However, it has not been reported to date in the Americas or Africa.

"Grass sickness is a disease of horses, ponies and donkeys in which there is damage to parts of the nervous system which control involuntary functions, producing the main symptom of gut paralysis. The cause is unknown but the nature of the damage to the nervous system suggests that a type of toxin is involved. The disease occurs almost exclusively in horses with access to grass."
Grass Sickness in Horses

I've not ever been able to find any other info on exact numbers of laminitis in other countries. The Laminitis Trust simply puts it as "one of the most common causes of lameness and disability in horses and ponies in the country [UK]". But, I've never seen any numbers from them...perhaps somewhere in a research paper on their site? I think that probably few other....if any...countries have done a lameness assessment to determine what the figures might be. In the case of the surveys done in the US...I know that the economic impact and number of horses reported on a general survey has since been regarded by universities doing their own state or local studies as too skewed to be reliable. And given that the numbers reported on the lameness survey relied on owners to report if the lamness was laminitis or something else....that is questionable also because many of those cases reoprted not having an attending vet. And then we know that there are probabl coutnless cases in which owners never know that the horse was laminitic to begin with. So the question becomes....how reliable was that study based on the fact that many of the laminitis cases could have been overlooked or misdiagnosed by owners?

Excuse me now...I think I need some more caffeine!

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by Sue B

...Excuse me now...I think I need some more caffeine!

Heck I'm on my 4th cup and still mentally breaking down and digesting things so I can try to make some semblance of sense, (Uh College was almost 20 yrs ago now ROTFLMAO)

OK, SO to sumerize to date: With our limited brain trust and anecdotal studes, this is what we have tentatively come up with....

A MAIN reason for Lami/founder/colic episodes coming from grass pasture versus grass hay of the same type, and when chemically broken down are found to be very similar in content, would be, it seems, that the grass NCS levels fluctuate daily and seasonally, while hay NCS stays static once cured. Also, because many fields are OVER lush for what a horses system was truly designed for and we cant' simulate true range grazing in most cases, horses are prone to overeat what is too lush and high in NCS content.

SOOOOOO I think this is a conclusion we can agree on makes most sense...

NOW, then, one would think that planting less lush grasses might be a more 'ideal' environment for 24/7 pasture grazing management right????

[wyldterv]

As for Grass sickness, for some reason I seem to recall reading a paper that suggests that it may be a toxin caused by some kind of insect residue outbreak.... I THINK I read it in the UK HORSE AND RIDER .

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by wyldterv

NOW, then, one would think that planting less lush grasses might be a more 'ideal' environment for 24/7 pasture grazing management right????

Yep - the problem with many grasses these days is they were developed for cattle - get them fat as fast as possible, and that means higher sugars.

I think safergrass has a listing of some of the better grasses to plant - not sure on that though.

[Sue B]

Wyldterv.....why didn't you just say all that to start with? It would have saved a lott of typing! LOL

Originally Posted by wyldterv

As for Grass sickness, for some reason I seem to recall reading a paper that suggests that it may be a toxin caused by some kind of insect residue outbreak.... I THINK I read it in the UK HORSE AND RIDER .

OK....ummmm....what the he!! is "insect residue outbreak"?

[Sue B]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Yep - the problem with many grasses these days is they were developed for cattle - get them fat as fast as possible, and that means higher sugars.

I think safergrass has a listing of some of the better grasses to plant - not sure on that though.

JB...where ya been?
Yes, all of our conclusions are the same as those at www.safergrass.org. And she does discuss what grasses are "safer". However, after seeing how EAL calculated how much grass (88 lbs/day) a horse must eat to gain a comparative amount of nutrients from a similar grass hay....I thought there might be another factor we were overlooking.

Everybody sure put on their thinking caps for this one....hope there were no melt downs! LOL .....thanks a bunch everyone for your input it was an interesting thread!