[IIIBarsV]

Howdy. With all the hoof critique threads, I thought I'd take advantage, and post a couple pictures of my gelding Gooser's Right Hind hoof which is bothering me a ton right now- I am at a loss.

It has for all appearances cracked open at the junction between outer pigmented hoofwall and waterline, all around the toe. His Left Hind did this shortly after his shoes were pulled, but it grew down. This however, appeared on this white hoof and has "reappeared". He was due for a touch-up anyway.

I'm also seeing this crack on the Left Hind again as well, but not nearly so "open" as this one seems to be. It too extends all the way around the toe. Gooser is not sore on either as he came trotting nicely across the stonedust/dirt paddock today (if you want to see the video, feel free to ask).

As you can see from the pictures below, there is darker material (which appeared to be dirt) up inside the crack..... however, I took A LOT of toe off from the top and as you can see in the "after" pictures, I didn't get close to removing all of the crack. The dark that can be seen under the hoofwall around the crack is very, very concerning to me. In the "before" picture you can see the beginning of a vertical crack in the toe.

My question is, what am I looking at here? Just a plain old crack, or possibly the beginnings of WLD? I've never seen WLD at very first diagnosis of it, so please excuse my ignorance.

His front feet are fine. Flared as heck, and still got tons to grow down, but fine. They show none of this strange cracking anywhere (it is very easy to see on his white feet), and look healthier than they have been in years.

Before (4 weeks after trim):




During trim (I stopped trying to rasp it out here, after it became very clear how far up it is):


After:


You can see the dark pigment I mentioned. This is what concerns me the most and makes me think "WLD!!!!".

And a solar shot- there is hoofwall there and it is a 1/8th of an inch higher than the sole (except in quarters, which had worn itself down). I'm happy with how the soles on the hinds are doing- getting more concave every time I see them. He seemed to have a ton of toe but the quarters had worn themselves up and the heels were also pretty worn. Now, I did notice small bruised areas on the furthest point of the heels- significance?



(I love his frogs). Anyways, any ideas on what is going on here?

[Dawn]

There is a lot of seperation going on there definately. I'm not qualified (especially from photos) to say whether or not it's wld or seedy toe. Someone else might feel more comfortable doing that.

He does have a very long and dished toe. That in and of itself will allow for/cause the seperation. I do see the darker area on each side of the seperation though and don't really know exactly what to make of that.

[DangerRanch]

A change in approach would be a good thing here. That can be fixed in as little as 1 trim, and without backing the toe up like that. Why? Because everything front of the crack is excess growth that can be rasped off. How do I know? several clues:
Projecting the line of the wall to where it would meet the ground presents that the wall at the toe was enormously thick. Far too thick to be normal for a hoof like this. This is a flare where the wall is grown thick and not worn away. It is also visible (to me) from the top. I have seen several such toe flares on hind hooves. The final clue is the separation itself. The whole flare is shedding exactly at the point that I would have estimated the natural thickness should end. Usually this separation of a flare from the good wall is nothing more than a scratch line if it exists at all. (one white hoof exhibited the flare as a different, 3rd, color layer) I don't know how long that flar has been there but I would guess it was quite a while for the crack to get that deep.

On the photograph the 1st line to the left is an estimation of the healing angle, there is so little of it at the top that cant see the exact angle from the picture, and it may change over time anyway. The second line is the outer edge of the natural hoof wall. The third line defines the overgrowth. the red segment at the bottom shows the natural thickness, the green what the flare would look like were it on the ground. Put together you have what your wall would look like. Clearly not normal in proportion to the rest of the foot.

The sketch to the right shows what the wall would look like in a cross section. Green representing the cut you made, Red is the cut I would make.
To be on the safe side there is a little trick to rasping off these flares without going too far. While you are still working the bottom of the foot, once you have rasped the wall flat you estimate the natural thickness and you can mark this with a marker (I use a pen because I'm kind of a perfectionist) and nip off anything outside of this line vertically. Use common sense in estimating the natural thickness of the wall on a flare this extensive. Half inch wall is normal. If in doubt just do a little at a time. This hoof though would have made it it really easy, it's already told you where the edge is. After you have made the vertical cut you put the hoof on the stand and rasp the flare off just untill the bevel disapears, no forther. In your case, you vertical cut is already in existence though farther up the wall, stop when you reach the crack. Allways rasp parallel to the growth directly above where you are rasping. You want a straight edge, not a bullnose or something that looks like stairs. After your done with the flare, simply give the wall a normal mustang roll with a tad steeper angle than you would normally and sand the whole thing really well. Voila, problem solved.


Here is two pictures of a hoof that had a toe flare headed for timbuktoo that I was able to safely remove. Addmitedly its not a live horse but it still shows how I'd trim it. I don't have before pics or any other angle cause my camera was nearly out of memory. This one was a big headache to trim as the coloring of the wall had gone all wonky. So it took a bit of close scrutiny to find where stuff actually was. The wall at the rear of the foot was normal :yellow white line, followed by white water line, followed by clear outer wall. But at the toe it was : yellow white line, yellow water line, white outer wall, yellow flare. It was giving the illusion that the white water line at the back of the foot continued around the front of the foot out where the outer wall was. LOL that took some staring and poking at the texture. At least he had a decent sole under the junk. This was at the clinics in april. There were a lot of great people there, I had never seen so many aweful feet become so much better at one time.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by DangerRanch

A change in approach would be a good thing here.

I agree, but it sounds like we'd go about it pretty differently

That can be fixed in as little as 1 trim, and without backing the toe up like that. Why? Because everything front of the crack is excess growth that can be rasped off.

Those 2 sentences seem to be at direct odds with each other How do *you* back up the toe without removing the excess growth that gets rasped off? Rasping off the excess growth IS backing up the toe

Projecting the line of the wall to where it would meet the ground presents that the wall at the toe was enormously thick. Far too thick to be normal for a hoof like this. This is a flare where the wall is grown thick and not worn away.

I find it very interesting that you describe it this way. I don't see an *enormously* thick wall at all - I see the wall, maybe a bit thicker than it would otherwise be due to the abnormal stressed on it, just pushed out because the elongated length. it's a flare, for sure, but mostly due to the stretched white line, not largely due to the thickening of the wall.

It is also visible (to me) from the top. I have seen several such toe flares on hind hooves. The final clue is the separation itself. The whole flare is shedding exactly at the point that I would have estimated the natural thickness should end.

IME, once the length is removed and the white line grows in nice and tight, the wall thickness will be almost the same, just moved back. Things aren't moving back because you are reducing wall thickness, in and of itself. I DO agree that this splitting, which I've dealt with as well, is due to the unnatural leverage placed on the toe. On some feet, this would have resulted in much more stretching of the white line.

On the photograph the 1st line to the left is an estimation of the healing angle, there is so little of it at the top that cant see the exact angle from the picture, and it may change over time anyway.

That top angle doesn't change in relation to the coronet band. What changes is its relationship with the ground, as the toe and heel are worked on. I think you're first line is a little steep, from what I see, but basically I agree with it

The second line is the outer edge of the natural hoof wall.

I don't get this at all. Unless you are saying that is where you say the hoof wall would be if the whole toe were back where it belongs. If that's the case, then while I think you have it too far out, I'm mostly in agreement

The third line defines the overgrowth.

i think it's your terminology that is confusing here. I agree it doesn't belong, but it isn't an "overgrowth" of the wall, it's wall growing where the leverage of the toe has forced it to grow. It's not like the toe is where it belongs and this outer wall has "overgrown". The whole thing is pushed forward, not just that outer section having grown too far forward.

the red segment at the bottom shows the natural thickness,

IMHO if you have the first line determining the point of breakover (where the "healing" angle meets the ground) and the 2nd line determining the outer edge of the normal hoof wall, with the red horizontal line inbetween showing the desired thickness of the hoof wall, I'd say that would be a VERY thick toe.

the green what the flare would look like were it on the ground. Put together you have what your wall would look like. Clearly not normal in proportion to the rest of the foot.

Agreed - if the toe were not backed up to where it is, I agree the green shows where things would be contacting the ground. Not good - much too far forward, as clearly seen in the "before" picture.

To be on the safe side there is a little trick to rasping off these flares without going too far. While you are still working the bottom of the foot, once you have rasped the wall flat you estimate the natural thickness and you can mark this with a marker (I use a pen because I'm kind of a perfectionist) and nip off anything outside of this line vertically.

This is called backing up the toe with a vertical cut. You can nip or rasp, whatever's easier. This is what you seem to be against in our discussion over on ACC's thread What landmarks do *you* use to determine where to make this cut? What have you been taught/seen/learned that makes you focused on the "natural thickness" of the wall instead of where the breakover should be? Remember, before there is a bevel put on a wall, the wall where it touches the ground is it's current thickness, but the breakover is too far forward.

Use common sense in estimating the natural thickness of the wall on a flare this extensive.

I'm not sure I understand how this is common sense

Half inch wall is normal.

1/2" of what - from the white line to the outer edge of the outer wall? That's a LOT. I think even Pete Ramey (of aanhcp "fame" ) says about 1/4" , before the bevel, is typical. Obviously there will be some variation, but 1/2" as "normal" is quite thick.

If in doubt just do a little at a time. This hoof though would have made it it really easy, it's already told you where the edge is. After you have made the vertical cut you put the hoof on the stand and rasp the flare off just untill the bevel disapears, no forther. In your case, you vertical cut is already in existence though farther up the wall, stop when you reach the crack. Allways rasp parallel to the growth directly above where you are rasping. You want a straight edge, not a bullnose or something that looks like stairs. After your done with the flare, simply give the wall a normal mustang roll with a tad steeper angle than you would normally and sand the whole thing really well. Voila, problem solved.

The hoof can tell you where the breakover should be, but the thickness of the wall can change as the hoof gets healthier. I do agree that your rasping of the flare, from above, should follow the growth above - that removes flare without thinning the wall beyond where the flare isn't.

[JBandRio]

Ok, I took the same pic and marked it up a bit. The angled green line is the "healing angle", the correct angle of growth, based on the growth at the top. Where that line meets the ground is the correct point of breakover. The vertical line would be the vertical cut that DR described, though from what i can tell, this is further back than what DR was saying to do. What I *cannot* tell from this picture, even in conjunction with the solar shot, is where that cut ends up in relation to the sole. Obviously if it's beyond the edge of the sole, you don't do it there. Your other option at that point becomes a vertical cut to some point forward of that, but then you can rocker the toe to bring the BO back. I have done rockers, and I tend to start them very conservatively, and much depends on the concavity of the foot - the less concave, the less aggressive rocker you can do.

The red line shows the current hoof-pastern axis, and, assuming the cannon bone was vertical in the picture, you can see it's broken back, which means there's too much toe.

[Dawn]

What happened to never removing anything from the top of the foot? (In regards to DangerRanch, as the rest of the people posting on this thread have never stated that you shouldn't do so.)

[IIIBarsV]

Just for kicks, here's the very, very before picture of this hoof, when it had shoes on. Note the bulge. Turbo's hind hoof also had this bulge (only worse): one cracked off and the hoofwall became flatter afterwards. Gooser's hind hoof has split open before like this shortly after the shoes came off, and I figured it was the hoofwall relieving pressure. It was the winter so I didn't worry much- it grew down and that was that. However, the continuation of it right now is what made me get paranoid about possible WLD.

December 7th (about two weeks after shoe job, with snow pads and flat shoes):


The flare (bulging flare) on this hoof has grown down to just about half-way now. I let his hinds go a little longer on the trim than usual, about two weeks, which could be why it split open again. He's got very "high" quarters all by himself, I haven't gone out of my way to arch them at all- they did this after the shoes came off.

So basically, those cracks are likely from the extra time on the trim schedule, and the imbalance the flare growing down is causing? If so, I will get him on a tighter touch up schedule again for the toes. They were doing all right until just the last week or so.

You all have very good information. Thanks so much.

[barefoothooves]

IIIBars,
The bulge in the hoof wall is where the flare had started in the white line, so it's going to take some time to grow it complety down. Just keep up your trims, a little tighter schedule will minimize stress on that weak spot, so I WOULD recommend that, until the last of it's grown out. The trim is fine at the toe, I wouldn't go rasping off all the "extra thickness" higher than a 1/3 up the hoof wall. It's compromised by the crack, but as long as you are taking the weight bearing load off that weak spot with a strong bevel, leaving extra thickness higher in the foot until it has grown down, will leave it to protect the front of the foot if he were to bump a large rock or log or something.

The tighter trim schedule will keep that weak spot beveled and not allow anymore forces to encourage that separation. Again, as long as the flare is beveled from the bottom, cosmetic rasping of the upper wall just overthins it and minimizes protection of the foot in that area. It's mechanically not advantageous at all, IME.

[IIIBarsV]

Thanks, BFH. I'm not usually so aggressive with the top of the hoof, and I don't take off flares higher up than 1/3 for precisely the reason of bruising. We don't do much trail riding and the fields are clear of rocks and so on, but you know horses, they can get into anything.

When I was trimming my pleasure mare's hind feet today, I found a large bruised area on the more flared outside of her hind toe- going to tighten up her schedule as well. She tends to run forward bad because of the way she's built and moves- angular hocks and set under herself. Makes for great movement, but tricky hind hooves.

The horse in question has only been out of shoes since mid-January. He is otherwise sound, which is something I'm very thankful for considering how bad his feet have been for years, even in shoes.