[SeaSide81]

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

Here I disagree. A fat, ugly, useless mare with god-awful conformation can still throw good babies, you never truly know. Maybe that "fat, ugly, useless mare with god-awful conformation" is the fastest horse on the quarter mile track. Maybe she's the best jumper, pleasure horse...barrel horse. You never know how the babies are until you try them. A license is just absurd. What about these people who don't have a license but pleasure ride a stud horse? What if that stud horse gets out and breeds a single mare? Do you want to be fined for your stud jumping a fence, coming untied...maybe even bucking someone off and running to the nearest field and breeding before you can get him? I just don't agree.

Lucky_pine, for one thing is the mare was an exceptional athlete than by default she would NOT be fat and useless. She might be ugly, but you can't call a working horse useless and I never have, nor could she be very fat racing or running barrels. True, babies are also a chance, but I would rather take my chances on a performing, pedigreed horse with good conformation than a grade horse OR a pedigreed horse with terrible conformation. Why? Because I have a LOT better chance of getting a good baby.

You misunderstood. I don't think everyone that has a horse should have to get a BREEDING LICENSE, which was what I was talking about. Basically, I think the associations of the breeds should have a program/license for approved breeders, similar to how they do in several dog breeds. Again, NOT every horse owner, but any owner that wants to produce a foal or multiple foals.

And HECK YES, if you are irresponsible enough to have your stud in an area where he can get out and breed another person's mare(s) without their permission, you should be paying a BIG fine. That is just not irresponsible, that is dangerous! What if your stud dislikes geldings and ends up severely injuring someone's gelding? What if he is a savage breeder like some and causes nasty bite wounds all over the mares? HECK YES, if you let your stallion out, or he gets loose I think you should get a fine! He is YOUR responsibility and if you can't safeguard against him breeding indiscriminately or harming another horse, you deserve to be fined.

[SeaSide81]

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

Here's something else to consider. Out around in my area theres a house we call the Killer House. There was a murder there about 15 years ago, and things still aren't settled. Until they are, the people who now live in that house have to leave everything that was there before they move in. That includes a pasture full of registered mares and one stud horse. They CANNOT move those horses out of the pasture. Let me say this again...at the time of the murder the stud horse was in the lot with the mares....he still is. HE CANNOT BE MOVED. That means those people who live there would be fined over and over and over again for something they cannot prevent. Now is that fair?

Obviously not because they are not the owners of the stallion, right? Like I said before, I think anyone who wants to breed (i.e -stand a stallion at stud or make their mare into a PRODUCING broodmare) should be licensed and those that do not and still breed should pay a fine.

I think it is really odd that if there is still an outgoing investigation into a 15-year-old murder they are letting people move into the house, but not change anything. How can you move in without changing something? They would be changing something inside the house every time they cooked, clean, or walked! It makes no sense to me that they would let people move in, but not remove a horse from a pasture since I sincerely doubt the stallion is evidence. Maybe not leave the property, but not leave the pasture? That is just odd to me, but oh well, people do stranger, less intelligent things all the time! Anyway, no since the breeding horses are not owned by anyone apparently because thier owners were murdered I guess, than of course the people living there should not pay a fine.

But the idiots who left the horses there breeding and inbreeding for 15 years should be beat with something heavy!

[Blistering Winds]

Ok, lets put it this way.


You got 2 Full Siblings. Same genetics. One is conformationally bad, the other is conformationally good. Both have same training, envirnoment, etc.


GOOD CONFORMATION WILL BEAT OUT BAD CONFORMATION in PERFORMANCE ANY DAY when all things are equal!!!!


Conformation is VERY VERY HIGHLY passed on!!!! You will get Color, leg structure, shoulder angles that either mom or dad or grandparents had. You can find each characteristic (except blendings) within the close relatives that contributed to the new addition!

Yes, you get throw back FREAKS every once in a while. But you PLAY THE GAME TO GET IT.

You breed GOOD TO GOOD and HOPE you get Excellence. You don't breed Good to bad and hope. Because you know you will STILL get somewhere between good and bad MOST of the time.

Those that breed "bad" to GOOD, no matter papered or not, I'll just keep watching those babies drive through on their way to the slaughter plants, because that is where MANY bad conformationed horses, ESPECIALLY GRADE HORSES, end up in the long run. Because they can't hold up physically to the strain. Horse owners are mroe educated today and those "BAD" Conformation horses are now looked down upon and unwanted because there are 10 others in the same price range, same training, that are better conformationally.

[SeaSide81]

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

Registering, to me, doesn't really mean much except you can look back at the generations and tell they have a)good blood or b)bad blood.

Lucky_pine, that is EXACTLY what I have been saying! With a pedigree you get a history and an understanding of the horse's genetics! You know if mom and dad also had good feet, if grand-dad had a poor neck, etc. You CAN'T do that with a grade horses. Again, I consider grade to be a horse whose parents and bloodlines are COMPLETELY unknown! Not just a Morgan crossed with an Arabian, or a Thoroughbred crossed with a Quarter Horse. I call a horse that is a cross between two purebred animals a PARTBRED, not a Grade. I think a Partbred is a different thing because you can't still trace bloodlines and see backgrounds. I also considered unregistered to be different from grade. If you never bother to register your horse (though I don't know why you would not), you still know the pedigree.

Originally Posted by lucky_pine

What about these mares that are registered and don't look worth a ****? I've seen grade mares WAY better than some of the registereds I've seen. Heck, our neighbor has a grade mare, they don't even know what breed she is, and she has way better conformation and personality than one of our REGISTERED mares. I'd buy a foal out of her.

Lucky_pine, I have NOT once said that every pedigreed mare is a worthy broodmare. Heck, I think only about 25-50% of all mares should be bred myself. I totally agree that papers DO NOT make a horse worthy of breeding: conformation, ability, and temperament are a much bigger part BUT if I had two mares with perfect conformation, great temperament, and a good performance record, but one was a grade whose breeding was completely unknown and the other was pedigreed and I could see that her parents, grandparents, etc. also had all those qualities, I would breed the mare with the pedigree.

If you want to breed grade horses and buy grade horses, that's just fine. Your choice, your responsibility to those grade foals you create. I still stand by my feelings that a papered horse has a better future in many ways than a grade in most cases. NOT ALL, I know, but quite frankly if I had two horses for the same price, with good conformation, and good training, but one was papered and one was not, I would pick the papered. I could compete with whatever organization the horse was registered in, the resell if I had to sell would be higher, and I would have a better idea of what I was getting.

I agree that grade horses can be WONDERFUL horses and great athletes, but I still don't think that is enough to breed them UNLESS I had a very special reason and a forever home ready for them. And even then, the mare (because I would only breed a grade mare if I bred a grade horse) would be bred to a registered stud for a registered Partbred. I'm sorry, but I don't care if the grade stud was the most outstanding barrel horse ever put on this earth. You said it yourself, a lot of pedigreed studs totally flop. Well, that outstanding grade horse's chances of siring anything like himself are next to nil, and he is twice as likely to flop I think.

Beside, all those racehorses that flopped? They flopped on the track. A LOT of them go on to sire good racing Quarter Horses, or warmbloods, or eventers, or jumpers, etc. That Thoroughbred sire that had great conformation still has generations of great conformation behind him and his foals can still be very sound and athletic, even if he never gave them his speed. However, the perfect grade stallion has an unknown collection of genes and they are just as likely to be bad than good.

Again, you want to breed grade, fine. I can't change your mind, and I won't try. You think your grade horse is better than all the pedigreed ones, also fine. It is your horse and that is natural. I wish you the best of luck; maybe your grade mares will have nothing but nice babies. But what are you going to do when they don't? A lot of people will buy horses based on bloodlines, happens all the time in the racing and eventing world. If the horse is the registered son/daughter or grand-daughter of proven lines, they often get bought because of that. That won't happen with a grade horse. He might have the sweetest temperament and be smart as a whip, but that might not be enough.

I am not saying you are wrong or irresponsible to breed your grade horses; I just think I won't take the chance myself. Again, I wish you the best of luck and I hope all your grades turn out fine and get great homes. Just me personally, I don't want to put anymore out on the market than are already there.

[lucky_pine]

Haha, the murder. The people did live there. There were two couples living in the house. They had moved out, then had to move back in. I don't know whats going on. Its a small town and everything gets, well, forgotten. The humane society has been out HUNDREDS of times but they cannot take the horses away if there is food, water, and shelter there. Whether inbred or not. It's sad, and even sadder is the fact that someone should just find a way to secretly and humanely put them down. They are so inbred.

[lucky_pine]

Maybe you could look it up? I'm sure the murder is on record somewhere. Don't know what the peoples names are, but it happened in...North Henderson Iliinios. That or New Windsor or Viola. All the towns are so close together and I can't figure out what town it would be in. Mercer County. It's actually quite interesting.

[lucky_pine]

Seaside...if no one ever gave that fat, ugly mare with god awful conformation a chance at barrels or racing, of course shed be fat. If we just really gave them a chance it could work out. My appy is a grade, and no one thought very highly of him. He was an accident. An appy stud got in with a paint mare and he happened. Well, hes the best trail horse we have

[Blistering Winds]

Actually, the horses, murdered or not, are left to the Estate or the Next of Kin. Unless the horses were INVOLVED< the horses can be removed by the next of kin or the Estate and sold. FLAT OUT.

been through that law class already. They can be MOVED to a place and properly housed by someone in the family under the ESTATES orders. Once the Estate is delt with, then the horses can be sold or perminantly placed with their proper owners through the probate courts.

But the horses can be moved. Don't know any law stating that a family member, with permission from the Estate, can take the horses on with proper care.

[lucky_pine]

Okay, whatever. You look up the records, YOU talk to everyone around here cause that is simply not how its working. If that were the deal the horses would be out of there.

[Blistering Winds]

Maybe the people who are supposed to deal with the hroses just aren't doing it right.

Because the STATE can move in on the "estate" and take over the proper care of the horses with enough outrage or lack of care from the estate's side.


When did the murder happen?

I don't listen to HALF of small town gossip, because you might find a HINT of truth in the stuff runnin around town. Most of town gossip is 95% BS, 4% Close to it, and about 1% REAL truth. At least according to my grandparents who live in small towns as well.

I now live in one and MAN do rumors FLY. My goodness!!!!