[westernarabians]

100% on the dot...Registerd or not you need to be careful with breeding.
And like Moostang said on everything else... Jeez I bout underlined everything in that qoute lol...Couldnt say it any better.

Originally Posted by Moostang

I have no problem with breeding grade, as long as you are looking to improve the horse. Scout is a wonder grade horse, as is another horse from the same ranch. The man bred bucking stock and his own stock for riding horses. They have awesome feet, wonderful temperment and talent out the ying yang, but he was serious and as Sandra said, he bred UP to create is own breed, not just to breed.
Think about it.. how do you think a lot of the modern breeds started as... grade horses, but people cared enough to breed quality and start the breed.

[cassidy]

i dont see the problem with breeding grade horses at all some of them can be better behaved an preform well than registered horse what better a reason to breed than that

i would however think very carefully to what i was breeding it to!

[BestofPrincess]

Though off the topic of breeding but the end result comes down to this - you can't ride papers- I'm not saying my mare's foal are unregisterable, because that is not the case, if nothing, they are eleigable for more registries than her, but papers are just that paper with writing on it alot like money. Some thing that is in itself invaluable but we hold high in our eyes as more important than food vs money, or riddability vs. papers....
I did alot of research on my mare before I breed her I knew she had one foal before, out of a BS stud, aparently she had the only foal out of him, not long before he tried to jump a barbed wire fense. But I was told the colt was a very nice colt. I knew I took the risk breeding my mare knowing how pathedic her mom looked, but knowing my mare only showed color and a bit more size from her dam I had a chance of the genes skipping into her foals. So far she's breed true. Her first foal with me, does not look grade, maybe a half arab or a spotted qh. Her second foal with me breed true to the stallion, he has the neck, face, thickness, hair, and angles of a friesian, she was simply a vesel for him. I know the one foal will be a very talented jumper, and put other people to shame with there pureblood horses, I also know this years colt will be a show stoped esp. in the dressage ring.
I've looked into the stallions I breed her to in depth. I considered breeding her back to an arab, but for the ridding I want to do, there was just not enough selection of stallions who could do it too

[*BaRrEL_BaBE*]

Originally Posted by Circle C

Papers don't mean ****.

Fair enough. I could argue more and voice my opinion on some of your statements, but this is a thread for reasons to breed grade horses and I will not further go off topic.

[SeaSide81]

Apparently someone rated my thread terrible!

Good grief, people take things personally! I was not saying don't ever ever breed a grade horse or something, I was just voicing an opinion and asking for other thoughts! I happen to think this was an interesting topic that gave several people a place to voice their opinion so POO on whoever thought it was terrible!

[SeaSide81]

I probably should have been more specific when I started this post. I agree that papers don't mean everything...HOWEVER, saying that "papers don't mean ****" is ignorant to me. Papers do indeed mean something. Papers allow you to trace a family history and SEE that the genes within the horse can be passed on consistently. You can't get that with a grade horse regardless of how great their conformation or performance is. 4 generations of proven performance and conformation through a pedigree gives you a MUCH higher chance of getting it again though a breeding. You cannot say that with a grade horse whose lineage you don't know. They might have great conformation, but lurking in the genes might be gooserumps, club feet, offset cannons, etc. You could put together two great grade horses and get something ugly enough to make you cry! Yes, that can happen with pedigreed, registered horses BUT the chance is a lot lower than using two totally unknown heritages.


However, I do like crosses and there are some great ones that I also consider breeds. An Appendix Quarter Horse for example is NOT a grade horse; they can be registered, shown, and their pedigrees ARE traceable for several generations. Same with Quarabs, National Show Horses, Morabs, etc. They are all registerable, have traceable backgrounds, and the crosses are proven in the past to produce great horses.


When I say grade, I don't mean a purebred with no papers or a cross between two purebreds, I mean the average "mutt", as in, I don't know its parents, background, whatever. A Heinz-57 mix of unknown breeding. That is something TOTALLY different than a carefully planned cross between two breeds. I think there are some really nice Draft x Thoroughbred out there, as well as some beautiful Friesian crosses, etc.


I do still think ALL breeding should be done very carefully and with regards as to how the two horse's conformations will mesh. There are some great Friesian Crosses, but I have also seen some AWFUL ones that looked like their conformation was put together using different pieces! I have seen the same with Draft breeds as well. Just because the two horses are beautiful, does NOT mean their foals together with me. You need to be aware that some breeds/horses just DON'T cross nicely with Drafts or Warmbloods or whatever. I am using Drafts/Friesians for examples because their conformations are very different from other "common" riding horses, such as Arabians, Morgans, etc. Drafts and Friesians are BIG, muscular, and have heavy bone; putting these together hapazardly with any light breed just because "Friesian Sporthorses are selling well" or "American Warmbloods are selling" can result in disaster.


That said, I have also seen some really, really FUNKY looking light breed crosses as well! I saw a Tennesse Walker-Arabian mix was that have a BIG walker-type rear end, a Long, long back, straight shoulders, and a tiny little head that just did not fit that body. The parents were both great-looking horses for their breed, but their conformations just did not mesh well. Pony crosses can have the same problem.


So, in closing, I think crossbreeding is FINE as long as it is done CAREFULLY and with a LOT of thought. Grade breeding can be all right too, but in my opinion should be done even more carefully because you just don't know what is in the background so you can never be sure that your grade horse's wonderful conformation or performance will be passed on. You can't be sure with your pedigreed horse either, but you have to admit, the chances are better if you can see it being done consistently over the last two, three, or four generations.

[westernarabians]

LOL I think this thread was fine, nothing wrong with it!
I think papers ARE good, King is a half-arab and I was able to look up information on his dad and know I feel like I know my horse better cause I know his history and I was pleased with it to!

[arabkid]

I do not agree with breeding grade Stallions....but if I had a grade mare, and I thought I could get the cross I was looking for, I would more then likely breed it to an arab, so I could register the foal as a half arabian. They are in high demand right now, but I would have to know the foal I was breeding would be wanted...just like any other breeding. But I wouldn't breed a grade mare to a stallion where the foal still couldn't be registered....

Just my thoughts though.

[MyBabyTex]

The only grade breeding I agree with is when the foal is for personal use or you have a concrete buyer. Other than that, please go out to any auction and buy a foal.

But that is not to say irresponsible breeding of registered horses is okay... the horse population is getting larger and larger every year and the demand is not meeting the surplus. We need to start breeding responsibly. Because it is not just the backyard breeders doing it. Well known establishments are popping out more foals than they know what to do with.

[lucky_pine]

I'd breed a grade mare, but not a grade stallion. I have a paint yearling filly standing out in pasture, is she papered? Nope. But the forms are sitting right here on my desk, so I COULD paper her. I won't...I'm not selling her and I know that for a fact. Will I show her? You'd better believe it, she is the most gorgeous and has the best conformation I've seen in a filly. Will I breed her? You'd also better believe that too. Our neighbor has a yearling stud out of a Hollywood Dun It stud, he's dun and absolutely beautiful. His conformation isn't near as good as my fillys, but he makes up where she lacks, so we will get a foal out of those two. She'll probably throw a buckskin, and I don't care what anyone says, I can get some high dollars out of a buckskin foal around here. Show the potential buyer the forms from my filly that I never sent in, show them her pedigree (shes right out of an obvious conclusion stud and a sonny dee bar mare), show her the studs papers (he is registered) and BAM! We're sold. Then again, I have a show horse that is registered, and he's a gelding. Plus I have two other registered geldings that I registered myself, but all those papers prove to me is that the horse I'm sitting on has some good blood in them. When buying, I do look at papers. I look at the papers before I look at the horse, but again, it doesn't really mean much to me. As long as the horse performs to my standards.