[kmdstar]

Originally Posted by Lou3

Yes because a horse that is trained that she must be in FRONT of the other horses at all times is really going to be bored in a ring with twenty or so other horses? Cant have it both ways, she was trained to be a racing pony why would I be so cruel as to suddenly say to her "okay you have to be behind all these other horses today?"

...Seriously?

Starlite was trained then sold to a guy that just ran her and the bit of training she had flew out the window, all she wanted to do was run...so should I have...just LET her? I must be doing things wrong then...

What about OTTBs, OTSTBs? Should they all just be slaughtered because it would be 'cruel' to train them any differently than they were once before?

I'm sorry but that is honestly the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever heard.

I can now barrel race/pole bend/do whatever gaming on Starlite...as well as english stuff. I showed her in english classes and she got very hyped up but it was our first show and I was expecting her to be alot worse, she just needs to get used to it...to say it just SHOULDN'T be done is completely ridiculous!

Barrel racing...

English...

Ridden in a halter...

Showing eng pleasure...

(We showed barrels later that day)
Working on a loose rein...


Sooo pyscho right? Starlite's never had a pyscho day with me, ever. Shes a GOOD barrel horse, she just needs more basic training until we can move on to working on barrels alot. She WILL be amazing, not because she's pyscho, or because someone ran the he.ll out of her and thats all she is able to do; but because her attitude is right for it, she's a show off, wants to be the prettiest/fastest/best. She wants to do what the other horses do, except she wants to do it better. She's also an awesome trail horse!

She WAS very hot, but I have/am working on re-training her...I guess I should stop because ... well, since she was already trained it's just SO cruel to re-train her

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by kmdstar

...Seriously?

Starlite was trained then sold to a guy that just ran her and the bit of training she had flew out the window, all she wanted to do was run...so should I have...just LET her? I must be doing things wrong then...

What about OTTBs, OTSTBs? Should they all just be slaughtered because it would be 'cruel' to train them any differently than they were once before?

I'm sorry but that is honestly the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever heard.

I can now barrel race/pole bend/do whatever gaming on Starlite...as well as english stuff. I showed her in english classes and she got very hyped up but it was our first show and I was expecting her to be alot worse, she just needs to get used to it...to say it just SHOULDN'T be done is completely ridiculous!

Barrel racing...

English...

Ridden in a halter...

Showing eng pleasure...

(We showed barrels later that day)
Working on a loose rein...


Sooo pyscho right? Starlite's never had a pyscho day with me, ever. Shes a GOOD barrel horse, she just needs more basic training until we can move on to working on barrels alot. She WILL be amazing, not because she's pyscho, or because someone ran the he.ll out of her and thats all she is able to do; but because her attitude is right for it, she's a show off, wants to be the prettiest/fastest/best. She wants to do what the other horses do, except she wants to do it better. She's also an awesome trail horse!

She WAS very hot, but I have/am working on re-training her...I guess I should stop because ... well, since she was already trained it's just SO cruel to re-train her

If you are retraining the horse for something else then you shift their comfort zone to something else, you reprogram them completely to do something else, its a career change not confusing them by suddenly shoving them in an equitation ring the day after running a race and expecting them to cope.
What I am saying is that when you expect a horse to perform like a racehorse every weekend at competitions it is cruel to expect them to simultaneously not want to be in front of other horses - because thats their job, the are trained every day that their job is to get their nose in front. That is probably the big difference between barrel horses and english gaming horses, barrel horses run on their own against the clock, and english gaming horses run against each other with eight to ten other horses running at the same time. A barrel horse therefore doesnt have to be trained to get their nose in front at all costs and their attitude around other horses can afford to be different.
I wouldnt even take a horse for training for english gaming if it was perfectly happy to trot along behind another horse on a trail without trying to get in front, not gonna win a thing that way. Wanting to be in front IS the right attitude for an english gaming pony. Its essential for the job the same as its essential for a top notch racehorse on the track to want to fight to have their nose in front.

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by Serenity06

I did read her entire posts. In the same posts she is saying that its not fair to have a horse that was trained to be in the lead to do rail classes, says that her horse IS uncontrolable doing basic things like trotting in circles (yeah trained awesome), and that GOOD gamers are onle good for speed events. I'm not saying her horse isn't ill trained i'm speaking in general for the people who believe a GOOD gaming horse is too uncontrollable to do anything but or that ALL or even MOST gaming horses and too hot for anything else. A well trained horse can do the basics, like trotting in boring circles, WITHOUT putting up a fuss. Sorry.

Clearly not all of them can as my pony was the best trained GAMING horse in the world at one point and the best trained JUMPING horse in my area. Could she do a rail class? nope. She could do the bit where you spend HOURS standing in line being bored to tears while everyone else does their little bit, and do it better behaved than every other horse in the ring - she would stand exactly where I put her and not move until I moved her, she just fell asleep, unlike everybody else's supposed "well trained" horses that would trot the pretty circles but would fidget standing in line.

At the end of the day the measure of a horse's training is how well and how fast it responds to the tiniest cues from the rider and how unflappable they are when faced with carousels, loud speakers, other horses galloping past them inches from their back legs, standing tied to a trailer in the middle of all this, etc etc. In all these respects my mare was the best trained horse I have ever come across. When everyone's supposedly superbly trained show horses are spooking at the loud speaker and my mare was standing right underneath the thing falling asleep that just speaks volumes.

I never had to make an excuse for my mare's behaviour, never had to warn someone to stay back if they ran their horse up her backend, never had to worry when I left her tied to the trailer while I competed another horse or went for lunch, never had to panic that she might not load, never had to be nervous about all the spooky stuff around the ring putting her off her job, never had to think about her running off, never had to put her in a twisted wire bit because "she's too strong" (english gaming horses HAVE to be ridden in a snaffle), never had to watch how many treats I fed her by hand in case she nipped, never had to use food to bribe her to go past something or over something, never had to use a whip or a spur on her, generally just never had to worry about her behaviour at all. THATS whats important in a horse's training, not whether or not they will perform a maneouver that is nothing to do with the job you own them for.

[Serenity06]

Originally Posted by Lou3

Clearly not all of them can as my pony was the best trained GAMING horse in the world and the best trained JUMPING horse in my area. Could she do a rail class? nope. She could do the bit where you spend HOURS standing in line being bored to tears while everyone else does their little bit, and do it better behaved than every other horse in the ring - she would stand exactly where I put her and not move until I moved her, she just fell asleep, unlike everybody else's supposed "well trained" horses that would trot the pretty circles but would fidget standing in line.

At the end of the day the measure of a horse's training is how well and how fast it responds to the tiniest cues from the rider and how unflappable they are when faced with carousels, loud speakers, other horses galloping past them inches from their back legs, standing tied to a trailer in the middle of all this, etc etc. In all these respects my mare was the best trained horse I have ever come across. When everyone's supposedly superbly trained show horses are spooking at the loud speaker and my mare was standing right underneath the thing falling asleep that just speaks volumes.

And i COMPLETELY agree with that. My horses are the same way with taking everything calmly and they VERY rarely spook if ever.

You say she's the BEST gameing horse in the WORLD BUT where is the proof? If you are going to say something like that then be prepared to back it up with proof. Not being snotty saying this just asking.

But when you go off saying that it is cruel to ask a horse that is trained to being in the lead to be behind horses and that a horse that isn't always pushing to be up front isn't good enough to do those events you ARE wrong. The barrel trainer i know used to train race horses and those horses started out learning the same things her barrel horses were to learn (with out the barrels of course) and if they were asked to slow up and let horses pass then they would do it because of the TRAINING in place and they are LISTENING. Did they win, yes, did they love their job, yes. And they did it all while be very vesitile horses. i just don't agree that a gaming horse can't and shouldn't be behind other horses at some point.

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by Serenity06

You say she's the BEST gameing horse in the WORLD BUT where is the proof? If you are going to say something like that then be prepared to back it up with proof. Not being snotty saying this just asking.

Originally Posted by Lou3

1998 world champion team mounted games held in Sweden
2000 world pairs championships finalist mounted games held in the UK
She died in 2001
Never managed to burn her out, she LIVED for the competition ring, loved it.

Once again, you need to READ what is written without your pre-conceived notions flavoring your responses. SHe ALREADY told you. You just didn't read it.

[Serenity06]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

Once again, you need to READ what is written without your pre-conceived notions flavoring your responses. SHe ALREADY told you. You just didn't read it.

It wasn't a pre concieved notion i just missed that post so i apologize for that.

But again i'm not just talking about her horse i'm talking about gamers in general.

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by Serenity06

And i COMPLETELY agree with that. My horses are the same way with taking everything calmly and they VERY rarely spook if ever.

You say she's the BEST gameing horse in the WORLD BUT where is the proof? If you are going to say something like that then be prepared to back it up with proof. Not being snotty saying this just asking.

The proof is right there in the results for anyone to look up on the internet. Do a search for the GB mounted games association team Sweden (which I have been informed was 1996 not 1998 as I previously stated) and look for her name - she was called Ginny.

But when you go off saying that it is cruel to ask a horse that is trained to being in the lead to be behind horses and that a horse that isn't always pushing to be up front isn't good enough to do those events you ARE wrong. The barrel trainer i know used to train race horses and those horses started out learning the same things her barrel horses were to learn (with out the barrels of course) and if they were asked to slow up and let horses pass then they would do it because of the TRAINING in place and they are LISTENING. Did they win, yes, did they love their job, yes. And they did it all while be very vesitile horses. i just don't agree that a gaming horse can't and shouldn't be behind other horses at some point.

You're completely missing the point that a gaming pony SHOULD want to be in front ALL the time, thats the IDEAL attitude, its what an english games rider WANTS. I'm in the middle of doing all the stunts that go with the race I dont want to be having to push a horse on at the same time - they need that DESIRE to be in front and get home before the other horse and fight to the finish line because unlike someone riding a barrel horse and focussing on nothing but getting the horse home I have other things to do, its the pony's job to see another horse coming up behind, or just in front and respond appropriately, mine is to get the stunts right.

[Serenity06]

Originally Posted by Lou3

The proof is right there in the results for anyone to look up on the internet. Do a search for the GB mounted games association team Sweden (which I have been informed was 1996 not 1998 as I previously stated) and look for her name - she was called Ginny.



You're completely missing the point that a gaming pony SHOULD want to be in front ALL the time, thats the IDEAL attitude, its what an english games rider WANTS. I'm in the middle of doing all the stunts that go with the race I dont want to be having to push a horse on at the same time - they need that DESIRE to be in front and get home before the other horse and fight to the finish line because unlike someone riding a barrel horse and focussing on nothing but getting the horse home I have other things to do, its the pony's job to see another horse coming up behind, or just in front and respond appropriately, mine is to get the stunts right.

And in the ring during your event and with other things i undrstand. But if you ASK the horse to do a rail class or be behind other horses then it SHOULD WILLINGLY do it or at least do it without too much of a fuss is all i'm saying.

[Lou3]

Originally Posted by Serenity06

And in the ring during your event and with other things i undrstand. But if you ASK the horse to do a rail class or be behind other horses then it SHOULD WILLINGLY do it or at least do it without too much of a fuss is all i'm saying.

Why? because YOU say so? because YOU buy into the fallicy that flatwork is the be all and end all for every discipline. Sorry but I shed that false notion years ago, about the same time I realised that the best pony I ever ahd the honour to ride was not going to trot in circles without getting bored and letting me know about it.
At the end of the day if that horse is happy to trot along behind another horse and not be upset that it isnt in front then it is NOT a horse I want in a gaming string because it doesnt have the right attitude. No ifs no buts no opinion involved, a horse that will not try and be in front of any other horse in the ring with it does NOT have the right attitude for an english gaming pony. Fact.

[PiaffePony0412]

This has become completely ridiculous.

It all boils down to personal preference. Lou3, I can post quotes of you criticizing Grand Prix dressage riders for trailing their horses with draw reins as a reminder to always stay round, but it is part of THEIR trainer's TRAINING. You are basically arguing a similar point now as I was then.

I have known horses from ALL different disciplines: speed horses, english gaming ponies, polo ponies, event horses and dressage horses who were HOT and there was no way a kid was getting on their back without getting killed.... but it didn't matter, these horses were not trained to be KID's horses. The people who handled them were only those that could.

A successful competition horse has a successful mindset. Training does not stop at the physical. A 'well-trained' horse is a relative term to what you want a horse trained in.
If your horse can do a speed event and then let your little brother trail on his back with a halter.... if that is what YOU want, YOU trained him that way, and YOU are comfortable with it, awesome. Well-trained horse.
If your horse is a super fresh champion show jumper but he CAN'T have kids on his back, CAN'T do an EQ class or he can't even be handled by everyone, in my opinion, if YOU can handle him, YOU can ride him, and YOU don't have a problem with it.... well-trained horse. Well-trained means your horse is trained in what YOU WANT HIM TO DO.

"CRAZY horses", which is what this thread started about, are that way from PEOPLE problems. People who were abusive, or didn't have a clear nor effective training method that the horse could be progressive in.

My horse Chase is a wise OTTB who WAS considered a CRAZY horse when I purchased him. Never had an owner for longer than 9 months. After his really awful and abusive past, I have earned his trust and trained him, and we make an excellent team. No horse knows me, and I know no horse like we know each other. I have done it all on his back. I can put kids on him. I can let friends ride him. But when we enter the ring, be it eventing, jumpers or dressage, it is all GO and business. He was incredibly successful both in events up to Prelim and the dressage ring up to 3rd.
On the contrary, I have trained on FEI dressage horses who seem to get away with murder. They walk in the cross ties while being tacked, they passage as you lead them anywhere, they respect your space, but other than that, it's all out the window, they lack many things that other people consider BASIC needs in a trained horse, but, they can go in the ring and win an International level class.... so they ARE well trained. and ya know what? Their OWNER, and trainer was fine with it. They are HER horses. If she is okay with dealing with their other ****, then fine!

Your relationship, goals, training and comfort levels when it comes to YOUR horses, are all up to YOU. I have my own personal opinion of what a well-trained horse is, but it obviously doesn't go for everyone else.

-Piaffepony0412